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Utah lost Patagonia and likely other...

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Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers
"Utah leaderships' anti-public lands stance may cost state $50 million annually".

http://www.hatchmag.com/...r-hints-move/7714319
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
What happened to " this will be my last post about politic's"( at least for a long time)? I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. Hoping it's longer than your "long time".
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Re: [Stickhorse] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
 I'm gray haired, sore knee'd and overweight but I'm hoping to live for a long time. .[/quote]
Me too, and because of that I think politicains should leave public land alone. In my state they are trying to sell state land to private concerns, once that starts sportsmen and women will be left out in the cold. Chavez will do the same if we don't stand up and say something! It's not a Democrat or Republican thing, it's about where we will hunt , fish and camp.




Pro Staff Kokanee Creek Tackle Co.
"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain"
(This post was edited by wyoguy on Feb 8, 2017, 10:53 AM)
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Re: [Stickhorse] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I was referring to debating anyone on here about politics. I'm still going to post current events going on around the world, especially Utah, including ones about politics. I also meant that I will respond to political posts that I know are blantant lies or incorrect but that I won't start politic debates. Also, this topic is political but I left the political part out of it by not saying party's.
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
$50 million potential lose divided by 3 million (roughly) Utah residents...I think I am fine with losing $17.00 in return for keeping a couple million acres of land free for any and all public use.

And let's be honest, I was never going to see any of that $50 million anyway. Wink
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Re: [buckhunterhart] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Sorry, but I disagree. The worst thing that could happen is Utah government getting possession of the federal land. It would quickly be sold or given away. Even if they kept it, it wouldn't be maintained. Shucks, they couldn't/wouldn't fix the fish cleaning station at Willard Bays south marina. Been broke for a year and is still broke today. Rob Bishop is behind this movement and Bobble head Bob received 90% of his campaign financing from outside interests primarily oil and gas companies. I wouldn't trust that tub of lard as far as I could throw him. Like my daddy always said, "follow the money".


Larry



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [Stickhorse] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
This is a public forum and fishing lunatic has every right to post to it as long as he follows the rules. If you don't want to see his posts, perhaps you shouldn't open them.
This gray haired, sore kneed, but not overweight guy enjoys his perspective on life.


Larry



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I say good riddance! I am so sick of liberal tree huggers taking their ball and running home to momma when they don't get their way! Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out! I applaud Bishop and Chavez for trying to keep Washington DC Mismanagement away.

I know my opinion is very unpopular here and its not meant to start another scuffle. I hope when we all have the chance to get together in the spring, I may be able to show you with your own eyes, how poorly our federal lands are managed.
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bovineowner -- Glad you're out there and speaking your piece very well....I, too support Chavez and Bishop, and am grateful they are doing their job, in trying to lessen the hold the Feds have on us, especially here in Utah.....I've never bought anything from Patagonia, never had any need for their 'little rich boy' items....so if they go? if they all go? K-marts have left, Shopkos have left, business's come and they go.....something or someone else eventually takes their place.....Salt Lake has had a great run with the Outdoor group....let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands....
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Part of my point in bringing this up is to show Bishop and Chaffetz hypocrisy. Every time there is a few thousand dollars worth of oil, gas, or coal somewhere, they're both crying. If there was 50 million or more dollars of oil, gas, or coal somewhere they'd cry so much that they could fill up Utah Lake this year. Beyond the economic losses described in this article, there's evidence that public lands benefit surrounding area economies. Our State government didn't open some of our most popular public lands back in 2012 when the federal government shut down because of their "good hearts". They did it because the surrounding areas literally weren't making any money. I'm tired of people like Chaffetz, Herbert, Bishop,etc. trying to tell me all of these "economic arguments" and then ignoring the economic arguments like these and countless others that I could present you all.

Part of the point of posting this article was about looking at the bigger picture. A couple of you have brought up stuff like well that's not much money per person or that you don't care because you don't buy stuff from Patagonia. Those are irrelevant and insignificant points. First off, no the money isn't evenly distributed on a per person basis based on population. Secondly, you could make that per person based on population argument with literally any economic situation; it's frankly stupid. Third, this isn't about if you personally buy Patagonia gear or not...I don't. This is about overall state benefits(in this case loss state economic benefits) and even how the world views Utah. Less people are going to go on vacations/etc. in Utah when they know Utah's Leadership stance on public lands or hear about how lots of our public lands either get sold off or degraded if Chaffetz and Bishop get their way. Fourth, this is also about hypocrisy like I talked about before. I don't want to hear Chaffetz and Bishop "economic reasons" we should do this and that when they ignore the actually more and stronger economic evidence that I can provide them. I challenge some one you who use economic reasons to defend your oppositions for the way public lands are currently managed to quit dismissing or treating economic evidence contrary to what you want to believe as garbage.
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 9, 2017, 12:44 AM)
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I look forward to spring time as well Bovine. In the meanwhile, I would like your HONEST opinion about some things.

1. It's clear you don't think federal management is perfect but do you really think the states actually do a better job managing public lands? If so, what do you like about their management(don't tell me what you don't like about federal management...tell me about a specific state park or two in Utah or some other Utah public land and what you like about how they manage it).

2. If you really think state management of public lands is currently better than federal management, do you think that the state could maintain their "higher standard or quality" of management if they theoretically inherited all of the federal public lands?

From my personal perspective I'll tell you this related to both questions. I have yet to land a federal job(I don't really care who I work for, it's more about what the job is). That being said, I won't go into details here but I have worked state jobs. I will tell you from an insider perspective that with all the "complaining", they hear, you sure wouldn't think that our state is doing a better job managing lands. It's actually kind of sad how depressed and burned out a lot of state employees are because of public dissatisfaction. A lot of management issues people have with federal public lands have to do with stupid things people do. For instance I've heard you mention fires on federal lands before...most fires occurring on public lands whether they are state or federally managed are human caused. It's not a case of poor state or federal management...it's a case of someone being an idiot and doing something like throwing a lit cigarette onto dry grass on a hot summer day.

The majority of management issues people have with federal lands also has to do with money. My insider perspective has let me learn that the states have less money to work with. There's a reason why a few years ago fishing license prices went up. There's a reason why this year our state has actually used up its budget for snow plowing and removal. Both state and federal government run primarily on taxes; a lot of people don't like high taxes. So our low tax rates aren't helping either state or federal management at all but the feds are much stronger financially than the states. Federal management has financial issues, but their funding is strong enough where they can at least manage their land even if it's not perfect despite having to pay employees and other related expenses. The states can't afford to maintain or manage all of our federal lands in addition to paying the state employees and all other related expenses. When they can't, they get sold.

This is random but for any of you that hunt besides fish and participate in the dedicated hunters program with the DNR, I suggest you ask the project leaders perspective and opinion on state vs. federal management of public lands.

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Re: [Jmorfish] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Lol if you use your "businesses come and go" attitude about it then why can't I just say well lets let these oil, gas, mining, logging, and other extracting industries go and and be replaced by renewable job sources such as solar? By the way, solar provides more employment throughout the United States than oil, gas, coil and mining combined despite some people like Trump, Chaffetz, and Bishop being stuck in the past. In all serious, I hope you see how silly of an argument that is in the first place and also realize that unlike Shopko's and Kmart's, this wasn't a business residing in Utah. Outdoor retailers like Patagonia travel to certain cities to host shows. So no, this isn't a business like Shopko and Kmart that was residing in Utah and could be replaced. We've lost them and their are no replacements...in fact, we're likely going to lose other outdoor retailers and have no replacements and lose even more state money.

"let someone else deal with their cry-baby liberal demands...."

I hope you realize that people like you make things like public lands political. Caring about public lands shouldn't be related to whether someone is a liberal or republican. Looking past that, don't talk about life or other topics in general...I would like a itemized or numbered list of "cry-baby liberal demands" specifically regarding public lands.
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
For a fella who doesn't want to argue, you sure like too :)

I have dealt with federal and state land management for 35plus years. As a sportsman, and a rancher, I have dealt with both bureaucracies. While the state of Utah is not perfect, at least the management is LOCAL and not in the control of an agency 2000 miles away and dictated largely on a political agenda and not the health or benefit of the land managed. In my experience, Utah state lands are managed better. I recently spent 11 days hunting and camping on 16 sections of connected state land. 16 square miles of healthy range land where cattle graze and wildlife thrive. Where wood cutting is encouraged instead of banned so that lightning can scorch the earth. Where if a person has a question or a suggestion he/she can contact Richfield Utah instead of the Dept of Interior.

Lets visit this spring. Lets look at the range land, the wildlife, the mustangs, the sage grouse, the off- roading, the cattle, and a myriad of other issues. Lets learn from each others experiences and perspectives. I will wager we find much, much more common ground than we may think. I will kindly retire from our healthy debate now, as I have more calves and lambs coming and cows to feed. Enjoy your day
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order." This is just one small example of state mismanagement. Range management might be a different issue, but as a fisherman, I'm opposed to the state taking control of federal lands, any federal lands. I've got a daughter who lives in NYC. BLM and forest service land belongs as much to her as you and I. If federal land managers aren't responsive to your needs we have elected officials to hold them responsible. If the elected officials aren't doing their job, fire them. Rob Bishop is my Congressman. I've made hundreds of calls, sent letters and emails to his office on matters that concern me. Not once, have I received an acknowledgment from his office. Yes, every two years I do my best to fire him.


Larry



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
The Outdoor Retailers Mart is a business, just like Ringling Bros. or Cirque Circus coming to Utah...different presentations, different product, but still a business....and if cry babies like Patagonia leave for whatever reason, get kicked out, or fail as a business, someone else will fill their spot.....
Supply and Demand
Got a good product? The market will find you
Simple and good business knowledge.... Patagonia is not essential - they can be replaced. Someone else wants to join them? So be it. If they all go? Then like I said before, it was just another business, and business's come and go..They used Utah long enough, and got their $ worth....Patagonia made this a political issue..These are Your Friends, "People like You"...to quote your words..Not me..
By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk...
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Re: [Jmorfish] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
You have once again missed the point entirely. Patagonia makes money off of Utah just like other businesses...so what? I'm not talking about the money that they make. They bring over $50 million to the state of Utah annually...that isn't what they're making, that's what they're bringing to the state. No there isn't a replacement for outdoor retailers, in fact other outdoor retailers are talking about leaving us as well. The fact that you're arguing that a loss of $50 million to the state isn't bad is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Even Herbert realizes that this is bad for the state. Of course he's lying about how much he and our state officials care about our lands but the point is he's desperately trying to get Patagonia to come back and to stop other outdoor retailers from leaving. http://www.ksl.com/...43137206&nid=148

"By the way, I'll talk about life or other topics in general if I'd like....Read your own last sentence of every entry again and chew on your own words for awhile.....You are the kind of person who enjoys getting in the last jab or statement, so go ahead - but I'll be out fishing...Guluk..."

Number one, what are you talking about chew on my own words for a while? Of course I like getting the last statement in. Anyone who tells you they don't is a liar. I especially don't let anyone get the last statement in when it's either a complete lie or has ridiculous fallacy and reasoning. You were obviously to lazy to write me that list I asked for.

I'll be out there fishing as well and serving you and other recreationists in the future.

(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 10, 2017, 1:48 PM)
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Re: [FatBiker] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FatBiker wrote:
Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order." This is just one small example of state mismanagement. Range management might be a different issue, but as a fisherman, I'm opposed to the state taking control of federal lands, any federal lands. I've got a daughter who lives in NYC. BLM and forest service land belongs as much to her as you and I. If federal land managers aren't responsive to your needs we have elected officials to hold them responsible. If the elected officials aren't doing their job, fire them. Rob Bishop is my Congressman. I've made hundreds of calls, sent letters and emails to his office on matters that concern me. Not once, have I received an acknowledgment from his office. Yes, every two years I do my best to fire him.


Larry

Larry, I sure appreciate the frustration you feel over a broken fish cleaning station. Can you imagine if your livelihood and the ability to feed your family hinged on getting that fixed? The fish cleaning station in a nuisance and is surely inconvenient, but will you miss a house payment if they don't fix it? But that is exactly like the problems ranchers face every year from the United States Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management. Unlike the south marina at Willard Bay, I own the right to graze the federal land that my permit is on. NO ONE ELSE CAN GRAZE IT BECAUSE I OWN THAT RIGHT. And our family has owned that right since the inception of the Taylor Grazing Act in the late 1930's. But instead of it being an inconvenience when a government agency refuses to hold up their end of the bargain, it becomes a threat to my livelihood. Here is just one tiny example of that.....
The BLM has done range studies to determine the carrying capacity of each area they manage. They figure out how many deer and other game animals, how many non-game critters, how many cattle or sheep and how many wild horses each area can handle WITHOUT DAMAGING THE RANGELAND. This is done using very scientific methods including "clip and weigh" as well as historical data, long range weather forecasts, ect. The BLM has determined that our area has sufficient rangeland to handle 450 head of wild horses. And their own count puts the wild horse numbers at over 800! Almost double what they KNOW the habitat can handle. Can you imagine how much trouble I would be in if I turned out twice the amount of cattle the grazing right I OWN states I can? And yet when the horses damage the grass and overwhelm the meager water sources of our desert landscape, the BLM does nothing! They are afraid of being sued by "friends of horses groups" who have no idea how damaging too many horses are on the grass and water resources but think how pretty wild horses are on the open lands of the American west. I have watched horses die of thirst and starvation. I have called BLM managers and reported the suffering multiple times only to be ignored or brushed off as clueless. I love wild horses! And to see them suffer makes my blood boil and a black rage settle upon my attitude. Even though those horses are competing directly with my livestock, I would never allow them to suffer like the Federal government land managers do!!!! And when they finally get off their butts and decide to do something, guess what they try to do first? They TRY TO CUT MY CATTLE NUMBERS BECAUSE THAT IS EASIER THAN LITIGATION FROM "SAVE THE MUSTANGS" OR THE SIERRA CLUB! Suddenly that broken fish cleaning station looks kind of silly to me! I have worked my entire life to be a great steward of the land I own and the land I am permitted to graze on federal land. NONE OF THAT COUNTS TO MOST BLM AND FOREST SERVICE MANAGERS! They are sent out into their districts with a federal agenda that simply doesn't make sense. It's based on political decisions and not on sound science or historical data. It's based on fear of litigation. And it's based on whatever textbook some rookie ranger learned from at Delaware State! This is one example my friend! And it happens over and over again to myself and countless other ranchers throughout the west! When I lease a private pasture, I have total control of the amount of cattle in can graze there, how to improve water to benefit the range and the animals, how much access the public gets and a bunch of other things which makes it worth paying $25 per head per month. When I pay the BLM my fee of $1.85 per head per month I get nothing like that. I get campfires left unattended and human waste in streams. I get gates left open and fences cut. I get cattle chased by 4 wheelers and even shot with arrows (Happened twice so far in my lifetime). I get mismanagement from someone who cares not for me or the land they manage. I get red tape and stupidity and bureaucracy from my local ranger district up through the Dept of the Interior. I get heartache and worry over how my kids will continue in the tradition and livelihood I treasure like the air I breathe. It's much more than being irritated I cannot clean my fish! Should the state of Utah fix that station? ABSOLUTELY!!! Is the state of Utah perfect at managing its own lands? NOPE! But when I have a problem on the state trust lands I lease, I pickup the phone and call Richfield Utah. I talk to a person who knows the range, knows my family, and truly cares for the land they manage. I do not always get exactly what I'd like, but I get respect and have a great working relationship with the folks who have stewardship over the areas I lease. It's night and day different from dealing with the federal government. And that is just one small example folks.

Please let me also clear up something about prices when running cattle on government land versus private land. Many of you will say that $1.85 is totally unfair to pay per cow per month when it costs $25+ to graze the same cow on private land. THEY ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! First of all, go re-read what ranchers put up with on public land. Compare that to the almost total control I have on private. And second, remember I own the right to graze that government land. Many of you own your homes. Its paid for and it's yours right? But every year you still pay property taxes right? You no longer have a monthly house payment but you do owe taxes and will for as long as you live. I own my grazing right exactly like you own your home. The $1.85 per head per month FEE is just like paying taxes on the home you own. EXACTLY!!! So please don't come back at me with how unfair that $1.85 is because it will only prove how little you know about the subject. Not talking to you Fatbiker specifically, but to others who may jump on me.

Lastly, Your Daughter in NYC does have the right to use public land. She doesn't own it anymore than you or I own it. We can't sell it or build a cabin anywhere we'd like. We have very specific rules to follow on all public land from where we can legally shoot, off-road, camp, graze, cut firewood, ect. And those rules only increase and get more restrictive as we designate land monuments or parks. I too contact my Congressmen and Senators often. I ask them to protect my livelihood and the future for my kids. I ask them to stand up for private property rights, for water rights and for grazing rights. I ask them to trim back the over reach and mismanagement that seems to ooze from the cesspool that is Washington DC. I vote every election too.

I look forward to meeting you Fatbiker. I want the privilege of shaking your hand and telling you thanks for your service to our country! I want to associate with a guy who has a wonderful heart for complete strangers in need, like the Lauti's! I want to spend a day looking at God's handiwork of creation where I am lucky enough to live and work. I wish you all well in your lives, in catching fish, in retirement and with your family. I hope this long epistle might give ya just a glimpse into my small world of being a rancher. Have a fine evening sir!

Darrell (Really my name and not a bad Bob Newhart show reference) :)
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Darrell, I might take you up on your invitation this spring. I haven't rode my bike around the Great Salt Lake in a few years. Been thinking this spring would be a good time. Two years ago I went in early November so I'm looking at the end of April or first part of May this time. Does the body good to get out of the city, breathe fresh air and be by myself for a few days. If I go, I'll be coming back on the Pony Express trail. Should put me right in your neck of the woods. Shucks, maybe you'd let me spend a night in your barn. Another month or so, I should have dates and details figured out.



Larry



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [FatBiker] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Larry,
You will be welcome at my home anytime you need a floor or couch to crash on! I will send ya a PM with my cell number. Looking forward to putting a face with the name. I better get my XR running and we can spend a few days wandering around the desert :)

Darrell
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Fools usually think they are Very Smart....You Sir, are Very Smart.....Guluk...and goodbye....don't waste my time or yours anymore....
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Re: [FatBiker] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FatBiker wrote:
Bovineowner, there's a fish cleaning station at Willard Bay's south marina that has been broken for at least 18 months. Willard Bay is one else of the state's most popular state parks. Despite the efforts of many people on this site we have not been able to get any action on this issue. Utah collects $10 from everyone who drives through the gate yet won't put any money into maintaining the facilities. I've personally made three trips to SLC on this issue and the only answer I can get is, "the parts on order."

Larry
I don't want to hijack lunatics thread, but I would suggest you go back and read my thread on the cleaning station Larry. I think I covered it well and showed the who, what, where, and when. I did it all with just a few phone calls, emails, and a face-to-face meeting with Officer Morgan (Willard Bay SP Manager). Was the ball dropped? Yes, more than once. Will the problem be fixed? Definitely! Did I complain, and cry, and moan about it like a lunatic on a Internet forum? Nah! I found out the facts of the matter and posted the information for everybody's benefit with no political overtones or placing of blame. Here's the link: Cleaning Station thread

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:23 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bob, did your efforts get it fixed? I was one of the folks who emailed and made calls (at your suggestion). I even stopped at their Hq in SLC several times. While the cover was removed, it still wasn't fixed. This is an excellent example of state mismanagement. Personally, I don't think they are capable or willing to manage Utah federal land.


Larry

By the way, myself and a thousand other Patriots in attendance and waiting outside enjoyed the non-answers little Jason Chavez gave at his town hall meeting the other night. Power to the people!!!!



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [FatBiker] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FatBiker wrote:
Bob, did your efforts get it fixed?
Did my efforts get it fixed? No, they did not. However, my efforts DID get folks (like yourself) involved and did get folks in the state government to take another look at the problem and possibly even got things moving quicker to get it fixed. Thank you for getting involved.

As to communications between me and my Federal/State congressional folks, I have ALWAYS gotten a reply when I write to them. I don't have a clue as to why you don't and don't care to guess. As to showing up at Town Hall meetings, it's a total waste of time regardless of who is conducting it. ALL politicians see this as only a photo op and NONE of them, for the most part, really care what you think or say at those affairs.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
That's the second one they lost this week. Maybe more to follow soon....I'll have to look at the figures they bring to the state but now I bet we've lost over $100million annually. http://www.tetongravity.com/...of-outdoor-retailer1
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Okay, it’s time to stop the bovine excrement of the highest odor. Lunatic would have us believe that because Patagonia, Black Diamond, and now Arc'teryx don’t like the political environment here in Utah that the Outdoor Retailers are pulling out of Utah and will cost the state $50 million annually.
The Outdoor Retailers issued a press release that, among other things, said it brings 29,000 outdoor manufacturers, retailers, and suppliers to the Salt Palace Convention Center each year. So, I’m supposed to get all upset and worried about 3 no-shows? Yeah; right.
The other side of the coin is this – the show is locked into SLC until at least the Summer Show of 2018. Here is a quote from the Outdoor Retailers news release of Feb 6, 2017:
Quote:
Salt Lake has been an incredible venue and our home for more than 20 years. Outdoor Retailer’s current contract commitment is through Summer Market 2018. We will begin exploring location options beyond that which will include Salt Lake City as well as other cities that are viable options for Outdoor Retailer.
Key criteria that we will evaluate include facilities, hotels, transportation, labor costs and the degree to which the host city aligns with our industry’s core values.
We’d like to stress we have not made a decision to leave Salt Lake City. This said, we believe it is important to evaluate our location options to ensure Outdoor Retailer is hosted in the best city and venue that will serve our customers’ unique culture and diverse business needs across multiple market segments.
Could the Outdoor Retailers cut and run because a few libtard retailers are crying because they didn’t get their milk and cookies last night? Yes, they could. Is it a done deal right now? Hell no. Listening to libtards whining is rather like reading the story Chicken Little all over again. The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Pathetic.

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
2 more to the mix. Dubob, the show will go on no matter how many drop out because outdoor retailers is honoring their 2018 contract. The show's will go on but the money that gets generated for the state will be drastically reduced because of decreased sponsors. A more important point is that even outdoor retailers like REI who have stated that they are still going to the show know that what are state officials are trying to do is bad. The other more important issues goes beyond 2018. This isn't a liberal vs. republican issue. This is a matter of having the best possible public lands. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=43148443CEO

And No Dubob the sky is not falling down but state money will be less than normal as a result of this. That is why Governor Herbert is trying desperately to get them to not withdraw. https://www.ksl.com/...43137206&nid=148
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 11, 2017, 5:20 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Show me where you're getting this 29,000 outdoor manufactures number. I looked on their press with the date you said and all they said they would honor their contract till 2018. They're the group but park of their group isn't attending. It doesn't say anything about your 29,000 number. I'm to lazy to count it right now but in fact, I can already look and see that this is less than 100 sponsors.
http://outdoorretailer.com/...ouncement-3400.shtml
http://www.outdoorretailer.com/...-info/sponsors.shtml
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Fishinglunatic I guess the thousands of ranching families in our state should have no say in how public lands are managed? To you, "having the best possible public lands" means my vote doesn't count? So a high end company that makes $400 vests using the down of unborn geese gets it's dander up over the Governor and our legislator standing up for the rights of multi-generational family ranches and that is fine with you? I am incredulous at your naïve attitude amigo. You are a millennial who has everything figured out and nobody can tell you otherwise. While I will continue to applaud your passion and enthusiasm, I am truly disappointed at your lack of understanding of rural issues and the negative effects bad land management policy have on the citizens of this state. And, sadly, your career will directly effect those same folks you sure seem to have very little regard for. I encourage you to open your mind to those of us who have been around the block many times. You just might learn something.
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bob, precisely my point. The cleaning station still isn't fixed after a bunch of folks led by you (thank you) brought it to their attention. They made promises, but never followed through and solved the problem. Why would anybody believe they will manage the federal lands appropriately when they can't even fix a fish cleaning station at one of their most popular state parks? As far as Town Hall meetings, in the past you were right. At this one, young Jason seemed astounded at the reception he received, especially when we started chanting, "Do you job." The little fella has to stand for reelection in two years. Might not be as easy as past elections. I'll give credit where credit is due. The left learned a lesson from the Tea Party activists in 2008 and 2009. Hopefully, we can keep some momentum going and make some well needed change on both sides of the aisle.



Larry



Larry

...one flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo’s nest...
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I'm sorry Bovine Owner but no I don't think that public land management should be catered to a few thousand people compared to the actual state population of over 3 million. Beyond that 3 million living in the state, I believe public lands are for EVERYONE. I think management should reflect what's best for the majority of people and not a small group. When I'm in the position to, I want to visit other states national parks, monuments, and other public lands and I want other states to be able to see ours. That is not possible with what our state officials are trying to do. I still cringe today when I try to fly fish a river and have to wonder whether I'm on private property or not. Or even how I am restricted to what areas I'm allowed to fish on. My father wishes that we could fish places he used to. And by the way I know how expensive that land and even homes in that area are so don't try claiming to me that they are in a poor financial situation.

I still genuinely don't understand what some of you want allowed on public lands that isn't currently allowed. I don't know if some of you are trying to hide something specific that you want allowed because you're afraid of disapproval so you won't say it but the majority of what I've heard about complaints is allowed on federally managed public lands. As far as my future career goes, I'm going to do what I think is best. Maybe it really is impossible to make everyone happy. And I'm sorry but I don't think I'm naive. Number one, Those lands will get combinations of sold, privatized, and destroyed if our state officials get their way. Number two, People don't appreciate the work of our state more than the federal government, number three, it is impossible for the the states to manage all of our public lands.
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 11, 2017, 6:56 PM)
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Sorry to tell you Bovineowner but your grazing fee's will increase if Utah gains control to these Federal Lands. The Federal government currently spends between $200 and $300 million PER YEAR managing public lands in Utah, including fighting WILD FIRES.

So in your mind how do you think Utah is going to make up for the ANNUAL 200 to 300 million dollar shortfall.

Bottom line Utah will need to come up with 300 million dollars so you tell me how the state is going to make up for the shortages without selling, developing and increasing fee's on these lands.

Your posts are entitled you have no claim to these lands no matter what year your family squatted on them. Utah and its government doesn't care what date your family arrived nor will it abide by any local constitution many land owners already have seen Utah take there land from them.

Do the research take for example landowners who owned land around Jordenelle who had their land taken from them and many more ranchers like your self who lost land to the local government.
(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 11, 2017, 8:12 PM)
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Re: [FatBiker] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FatBiker wrote:
Bob, precisely my point. The cleaning station still isn't fixed after a bunch of folks led by you (thank you) brought it to their attention.
Minor point, I know, but the cleaning station is NOT going to be fixed. It's going to be replaced. Just a tad more involved and I expect (hope) it to take place this Spring.

I don't want to make excuses for Utah Parks Rec, but there are probably more than just Parks & Rec involved with a complete replacement and would account for some of the delays. It took the Feds 7 years to complete the new road from Brigham City out to the Bird Refuge proper because of inter-agency coordination (Federal, State & county agencies) and permit requirements and justifications.

When one researches and fully understands the complexity of State & Federal projects, one is less prone to criticizing management of said projects. I for one will give kudos to Officer Morgan and a couple others for doing the best they could on the cleaning station issue given the work environment and financial considerations they have to contend with on a daily basis. Unless you have walked a mile in thier shoes, you will never fully understand the path they have to walk.

And when 3 out of 29,000 participants pull out of an event (no matter how vocal they are about their withdrawal), it ain't a big deal. It will probably take a year or more before the Outdoor Retailers make a final decision about moving the 2 conventions they hold every year in SLC, and it could end up being SLC after all the dust settles.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
The show's will go on but the money that gets generated for the state will be drastically reduced because of decreased sponsors.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Bovine excrement of the highest odor. The $25 million the state gets is from each show period comes from the 29,000 vendors being here and buying lodging, food, and touring our area, NOT from sponsors. Three, 4, or 5 vendors pulling out involving probably less than 50 people will have diddly squat impact on that $25 million figure. And it damn sure IS a libtard (Democrap) versus conservative (Republican) issue. Earth to Lunitic; earth to Lunitic. Wake up and start living in the real world.

Oh, your link doesn't go to a page relevant to this subject.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
Show me where you're getting this 29,000 outdoor manufactures number.
Who did your research a/o homework for you in school? Wink


My most humble apologies to one and all. I indicated earlier that the 29,000 attendee's came from the Outdoor Retailers press release when in fact it came from a KSL News article from last August which reported on the Summer 2016 show attendance. Here is the link to that article: Outdoor Retailer event.


The Jan 2017 event was a little smaller at 22,000: Outdoor Retailer winter event.


As most of you that know me can attest, I don't post bogus data intentionally - ever. And if I do occasionally get it wrong and I'm shown that I'm wrong, then I own up to the mistake.

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:26 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Thank you for admitting you sent me to the wrong source.

That being said, in your KSL link for the summer it says this: "An estimated 29,000 people are coming to Salt Lake City this week for the event, including outdoor industry manufacturers, retailers and suppliers responsible for more than $25 million in spending, according to data compiled by Visit Salt Lake".

Some of that is the retailers but most of that it is consumers from other states. If it was only manufacturers, retailers, or suppliers it wouldn't have said including. Also included in that number is individual people who work for retail companies ...each company sends more than one person to represent their company. We're not talking about number of retail, manufacturing, or supplying employees...we are talking about number of companies(not how many are within the company). This is from outdoor retailers website them self showing sponsors for their planned winter show, it shows 15 sponsors. http://outdoorretailer.com/...r-market/index.shtml
Also from their website specifically, This is the sponsors who will be there for their summer show. Coincidentally they also have 15 sponsors for the summer as well. http://outdoorretailer.com/...r-market/index.shtml

As for your KSL link in the winter, that 22,000 number is the number of workers; not companies (each company has a lot more than one sponsor). It's also important to understand that both of these shows described in both articles already happened. They don't have anything to do with future outdoor retailer shows which is what this topic was about. I agree with you based on their word that they're going to honor their 2018 contract and there will be a show. But their own website indicates there will be more like 15 sponsors(I have no idea how many people each sponsor will send to represent their company). The sales generated will be reduced through 2018 but they will likely be entirely eliminated after 2019 when the show will likely no longer be hosted in Utah.
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Dubob, once again that 29,000 number you're citing includes customers and number of employees, NOT companies. And I don't know what link you're saying isn't relevant but if those retailers dropping out wasn't a big deal then your hero Mike Lee wouldn't be trying to convince them to not withdraw.
https://www.ksl.com/...43137206&nid=148

And no this isn't a republican or liberal issue. People can be an overall republican but fight for at minimum disagree with with what our state officials are trying to do with public lands. The same could be said about overall democrats or liberals...they don't necessarily agree with everything that their democrat officials, senators, etc. believe or are trying to do. Personally I am disappointed and think that a lot of people like you are just looking and going "HEY THIS IS MIKE LEE, ORRIN HATCH, and ROB BISHOP who are republicans...because I'm overall republican I'm going to take their word or just support there stance on this topic since they're republican". Look, it just so happens that most democrat senators/officials/etc. don't want what Lee, Hatch, and Bishop are trying to do to happen. Whether you are a democrat or republican, worst comes to worst you should be saying screw them(our state officials, senators, etc.) and their personal beliefs...what I want to happen regarding public lands should have to do with what benefits me and the majority of people , not what any particular political party's senators and officials want.
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bravo to FishingLunatic...
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Re: [sinergy] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Sinergy I have done my best to be cordial and explain my side of this issue in very clear and precise terms. But I am done with that after reading the complete drivel you wrote to me! You are completely wrong and you have no idea what the hell you are talking about! You are probably some over-educated moron who has never done anything with your life but draw welfare. For you to imply that my family "squatted" on our land is ludicrous and you must be nuts! We have a legal deed to every acre we own and we OWN our grazing right. You wouldn't know whats its like to work for a living and to treasure the land and it's plant life! I have done more research on property rights and grazing than you will ever even attempt to do. I am done with you! You are clearly just another whiny piece of garbage who hates ranchers. You have zero credibility to me and I hope you realize how offensive and completely dishonest your asinine comments are. YOU ARE A LIAR IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!! IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH!

Ban me if you'd like moderators. But I will not stand back and be attacked by a dimwitted jackass who has no idea what he/she/it is talking about!

This post is meant squarely for Sinergy and is not intended for or aimed at fishinglunatic, Fatbiker or others who disagree with me in a civil way. For that POS to imply that our ranch was founded by "squatting" is totally unfounded and unethical. Sinergy is not worth anymore of my time and I kindly withdraw from this thread to spend time doing what I love instead of wallowing around with a pig! I wish the rest of you well. Sinergy can go to hell!
(This post was edited by Bovineowner on Feb 12, 2017, 5:46 PM)
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Re: [fishgiver] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
fishgiver wrote:
Bravo to FishingLunatic...
For what - telling us the sky is falling?

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Bovineowner wrote:
. . .dimwitted jackass who has no idea what he/she/it is talking about!
Yeah, well, Sinergy ain't the only one we could name on here. Wink

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I don't think so Tongue.
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 12, 2017, 6:28 PM)
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
I don't think so Tongue.

You got one thing right - you don't think. Cool

Let’s talk about the money first. There’s about $50 million left in Utah from 2 shows annually. That money comes from an estimated 51,000 people attending those two shows. The money is spent in Utah on lodging, food, entertainment, tourist attractions, etc. Sponsorship money is not normally part of that total. Sponsorship money goes directly to the organization putting on the show; in this case, Outdoor Retailers through the parent company of Emerald Expositions out of San Juan Capistrano, California. Sponsorship buys you advertising space on-line and in the printed program. It may, or may not, get you priority in floor spacing and/or increased floor space. But the Sponsorship money is not a direct benefit to Utah or Utah businesses.

Next, let’s look at the estimated people attending; 51,00 per year. Where do those numbers come from? From the stats on the 2016 Summer Show, we have 1,716 exhibiters. There were 64 Sponsors shown for those 1,716 exhibitors. The 1,716 exhibitors were comprised of 2,651 people. Along with that there were 6,330 retailers present with multiple persons registered by most of them. Your suggestion that because 5 Sponsors out of 64 (from 2016) so far have said they will not sponsor/attend in 2017, that the this will cost Utah a major money loss. That is 100%, pure bovine excrement of the highest odor. Since none of the sponsorship money is a direct benefit to Utah, then the only loss will be from the 50 or so people that work for those five companies and won’t be here to spend any money locally. End of story.




Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:27 PM)
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
2. If you really think state management of public lands is currently better than federal management, do you think that the state could maintain their "higher standard or quality" of management if they theoretically inherited all of the federal public lands?

Let’s take a look at state vs federal land management for just one specific use; ice fishing. For comparison, let’s look at both federal and state venues. All are in the northern region of Utah and are used heavily during the winter months by people ice fishing. On the Federal side you have Pineview and Strawberry; on the State side you have Hyrum, Willard Bay, East Canyon, & Rockport.

All 4 of these State parks have their launch area parking lots fully plowed and available for public use 24/7. Pineview has two launch areas and Strawberry has 4 to the best of my knowledge. Of the six available, only one is plowed and that is solely because there is privately run business that remains open 365 days a year at Strawberry Bay Marina and they are footing the bill or at least part of it to keep the Marina open in the winter time. The rest aren’t maintained at all which says screw the public from the Federal Government. It’s clear to me and a whole lot of other folks that the State is doing one Hell of a lot better managing their land in Utah than the Federal Government is.

The Feds don’t give a rats behind about serving John Q Public. They think they have a higher purpose – whatever the Hell that is. We need more Federal intrusion in Utah like we need another hole in our heads.

There are other areas of comparison that will show similar results, but presenting them is both time consuming and tiresome and my time would be better spent planning my next adventure on the ice or in a duck blind.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:28 PM)
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Yawn, your entire post is a whine and cry not a single rebuttal on how Utah is going to pay for the annual 300 million dollar shortfall, just some gibberish emotional rant.

I actually started to write out a few paragraphs addressing everyone of your rants then thought why ? whats the point ? If your someone who flies off the handle at a post on the internet then you neither rational nor intelligent.

Think about it every argument that's made is implausible nor is there evidence of the fact. Just typing on keyboard. But your demeanor of getting in a rage is very apparent and person who rages over an internet posting one needs ask themselves am I a sane person. Id offer the advice to stay off the internet. I can only imaging what would happen if a person in real life where to approached you.

What I find comedic is one post and you lost all composure making yourself look like a complete ass.
Maybe next time take a deep breath use some intellect and type an intelligent rebuttal.

But now that I address your temper tantrum back to the subject at hand

So Again I ask how do you think the state is going to make up for a ANNUAL 300 million dollar shortfall without Mining\Fracking, Selling, or developing it. ???


Oh and heres a fun fact for you Bovine

"oil and gas royalties would never be sufficient to cover the state’s costs.However, the state would have access to other revenue streams such as coal royalties oil, gas and coal rents and bonus payments and other land-based revenues" : Direct for the PLI


And what do you think are those "Other Land based Revenues".. Hmmm grazing fee's ...


(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 13, 2017, 2:02 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Interesting analogy, but you do realize the state did a year long analysis, involving multiple agencies and using a million dollars to survey exactly this question.

its published and readily available
Maybe you should read it and get some insight how the state reflects on your answer.

I find all this very comical one needs ask without even knowing how the state is going to represent the land to the public do your arguments even have a foot to stand on. LOL

Oh and here a fun fact for you BLM, Forest Service and FWS support almost 5,000 Utah jobs. With the PLI those jobs will be on hook. With the immediate withdrawal of funds from the Feds the question remains will all 5000 jobs be available.

Geez I hope those people get to fish those plowed roads before there jobs get slashed.
(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 13, 2017, 1:50 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I guess I didn't think when I graduated in the top 10% of my class and was a member of the National Honors Society for Leadership and Success. Dubob I would like know your education history. Any claim you make above high school, I would need to see your transcripts just like I would love to see Donald Trump's tax returns.

I'm with sinergy. All your points are either lies, insignificant, or have literally nothing to do with the topic we're talking about. First, you tried lying saying there was 22,000 or how ever many sponsors and then I exposed that bs. Now your trying to talk about 2016 shows when things were different then. Earth to Dubob, sponsors change every year...I'm not even gonna bother verifying anything u said is true this time but even assuming so, it's not the same every year and people weren't talking about dropping out of the show in 2016. Your full of B.S. If we go with your number of 6,330 retailers and divide it by your number of 64 sponsors then that means there is an average of almost 99 retailers per sponsor. Therefore your assertion that only 50 less retailers will be there is BS. 99*5(how many have dropped out so far)=495. 495 is a far more accurate estimate for how many less retailers there will be. And BEYOND WHICH, this ISN'T 2016. THERE WILL NOT BE 64 SPONSORS. THERE WILL BE 15 FOR EACH SHOW. Bottom line...Utah will be surviving...not thriving.

By the way, your silly assertions about these ice fishing spots are stupid and have nothing to do with federal or state management. You travel on STATE roads to get to federal or state managed recreation sites. First of all, the road to East Canyon is not plowed for the way I take to get to it in the Summer. Secondly, almost every state park you take highways like U.S 40 OR I-80. They're plowed because those are major highways...it has nothing to do with federal vs. state management. If you want to play that silly game then I'll say that the state is doing a horrible job managing their waters compared to the feds. Quagga mussels and any other aquatic invasive species(burbot, northern pike, bass, lake trout, carp, etc.) related problems are far more severe in state managed watershed areas than federally managed watershed areas. I hope you and other people reading this understand how stupid both what you said about the road plowing, and what I said about aquatic invasive species is. These are problems that literally have nothing to do with state and federal management. Yours are major highways and mine is because of stupid and irresponsible recreationist behavior.

By the way, please describe and explain what I'm looking at?
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 13, 2017, 2:32 PM)
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Re: [sinergy] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
sinergy wrote:
Interesting analogy, but you do realize the state did a year long analysis, involving multiple agencies and using a million dollars to survey exactly this question. And what question would that be? I don't read minds; therefore I have no clue as to what question to which you refer.

its published and readily available
Maybe you should read it and get some insight how the state reflects on your answer. If you want me to read it, maybe you should post a link. I'm not interested enough in anything you say to make the effort.

I find all this very comical one needs ask without even knowing how the state is going to represent the land to the public do your arguments even have a foot to stand on. LOL

Oh and here a fun fact for you BLM, Forest Service and FWS support almost 5,000 Utah jobs. With the PLI those jobs will be on hook. With the immediate withdrawal of funds from the Feds the question remains will all 5000 jobs be available.

Geez I hope those people get to fish those plowed roads before there jobs get slashed.
God, but your boring. Suppositions, conjecture, and false news all rolled into one. No data, no facts; just gibberish and suggestions to go on wild goose chases looking for data you're to lazy or to illiterate to post. Yep, Bovineowner has you pegged. A crybaby libtard with no real sense about how the real world actually works. And by the way, just so you don't try to auger holes into the asphalt or concrete in those roads - you fish the lakes the roads lead to, not the roads themselves. But then, I'm never surprised at the stupid ideas libtards come up with on a regular basis.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [Bovineowner] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
BovineOwner, I don't want to push your buttons but when you have time, I would like your opinion on this brief excerpt that pertains to your profession of ranching.
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Typical narrow minded response, "he's lying, "he cheating" wah wah wah LOL

The quotes are directly posted from the states analysis so believe in what you want the information is there and published to the public The analysis was paid by Utah ( the same people whom you are supporting) and done by the U of U, Weber State, Utah State and more.

The only reason I dont post the link is I enjoy reading your crazy posts and laughing at you and bovine making these crazy assumptions and raging at your pc's. Pirate
(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 13, 2017, 2:57 PM)
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
I guess I didn't think when I graduated in the top 10% of my class and was a member of the National Honors Society for Leadership and Success. Dubob I would like know your education history. Any claim you make above high school, I would need to see your transcripts just like I would love to see Donald Trump's tax returns.

I'm with sinergy. All your points are either lies, insignificant, or have literally nothing to do with the topic we're talking about. First, you tried lying saying there was 22,000 or how ever many sponsors and then I exposed that bs. Now your trying to talk about 2016 shows when things were different then. Earth to Dubob, sponsors change every year...I'm not even gonna bother verifying anything u said is true this time but even assuming so, it's not the same every year and people weren't talking about dropping out of the show in 2016. Your full of B.S. If we go with your number of 6,330 retailers and divide it by your number of 64 sponsors then that means there is an average of almost 99 retailers per sponsor. Therefore your assertion that only 50 less retailers will be there is BS. 99*5(how many have dropped out so far)=495. 495 is a far more accurate estimate for how many less retailers there will be. And BEYOND WHICH, this ISN'T 2016. THERE WILL NOT BE 64 SPONSORS. THERE WILL BE 15 FOR EACH SHOW. Bottom line...Utah will be surviving...not thriving.

By the way, your silly assertions about these ice fishing spots are stupid and have nothing to do with federal or state management. You travel on STATE roads to get to federal or state managed recreation sites. First of all, the road to East Canyon is not plowed for the way I take to get to it in the Summer. Secondly, almost every state park you take highways like U.S 40 OR I-80. They're plowed because those are major highways...it has nothing to do with federal vs. state management. If you want to play that silly game then I'll say that the state is doing a horrible job managing their waters compared to the feds. Quagga mussels and any other aquatic invasive species(burbot, northern pike, bass, lake trout, carp, etc.) related problems are far more severe in state managed watershed areas than federally managed watershed areas. I hope you and other people reading this understand how stupid both what you said about the road plowing, and what I said about aquatic invasive species is. These are problems that literally have nothing to do with state and federal management. Yours are major highways and mine is because of stupid and irresponsible recreationist behavior.

By the way, please describe and explain what I'm looking at?
FishingLunatic wrote:
I guess I didn't think when I graduated in the top 10% of my class and was a member of the National Honors Society for Leadership and Success. Dubob I would like know your education history. Any claim you make above high school, I would need to see your transcripts just like I would love to see Donald Trump's tax returns.

I'm with sinergy. All your points are either lies, insignificant, or have literally nothing to do with the topic we're talking about. First, you tried lying saying there was 22,000 or how ever many sponsors and then I exposed that bs. Now your trying to talk about 2016 shows when things were different then. Earth to Dubob, sponsors change every year...I'm not even gonna bother verifying anything u said is true this time but even assuming so, it's not the same every year and people weren't talking about dropping out of the show in 2016. Your full of B.S. If we go with your number of 6,330 retailers and divide it by your number of 64 sponsors then that means there is an average of almost 99 retailers per sponsor. Therefore your assertion that only 50 less retailers will be there is BS. 99*5(how many have dropped out so far)=495. 495 is a far more accurate estimate for how many less retailers there will be. And BEYOND WHICH, this ISN'T 2016. THERE WILL NOT BE 64 SPONSORS. THERE WILL BE 15 FOR EACH SHOW. Bottom line...Utah will be surviving...not thriving.

By the way, your silly assertions about these ice fishing spots are stupid and have nothing to do with federal or state management. You travel on STATE roads to get to federal or state managed recreation sites. First of all, the road to East Canyon is not plowed for the way I take to get to it in the Summer. Secondly, almost every state park you take highways like U.S 40 OR I-80. They're plowed because those are major highways...it has nothing to do with federal vs. state management. If you want to play that silly game then I'll say that the state is doing a horrible job managing their waters compared to the feds. Quagga mussels and any other aquatic invasive species(burbot, northern pike, bass, lake trout, carp, etc.) related problems are far more severe in state managed watershed areas than federally managed watershed areas. I hope you and other people reading this understand how stupid both what you said about the road plowing, and what I said about aquatic invasive species is. These are problems that literally have nothing to do with state and federal management. Yours are major highways and mine is because of stupid and irresponsible recreationist behavior.

By the way, please describe and explain what I'm looking at?

Like I said before kid - grow up before you try to play with the adults. Trying to talk to you is like trying to talk to an autistic 2-year old. I lied about nothing. Just because you don't have the skills or intelligence to understand factual data doesn't mean nobody else does. Any adult understands the facts and points I made.


I have a BSEE degree from Weber State and had a 3.92 GPA in my major. I have no clue what percentile I ended up in and don't care. I was employed immediately upon graduating and had to pick from 5 offers. I was given an annual salary that was a record at the time for a Weber State BS graduate from ANY field of study. That salary record stood for over 12 years. My education and life experience so far exceeds anything you can lay claim to, yours isn't even on the same chart. Grow up kid. You're beginning to boar me.



Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [sinergy] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
sinergy wrote:
Typical narrow minded response, "he's lying, "he cheating" wah wah wah LOL

The quotes are directly posted from the states analysis so believe in what you want the information is there and published to the public The analysis was paid by Utah ( the same people whom you are supporting) and done by the U of U, Weber State, Utah State and more.

The only reason I dont post the link is I enjoy reading your crazy posts and laughing at you and bovine making these crazy assumptions and raging at your pc's. Pirate
Yeah, I'm raging all right! Bovine. you having as much fun as I am from this clown? God, he's a hoot.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Haha old man I don't know if I believe you or if I even care. Your supposed degree is about engineering and mine is directly related to the topic of public lands. And guess what? I'm not done with school. I'll have my masters or phD in a few years. You were defeated with every lie or misrepresentation that you tried fooling this forum with. I would love to meet you in real life. You haven't had a good response to any of what I've previously said or my most recent post. Haha how does it feel that your days are coming to to an end? How does it feel that that when your time comes you won't be swimming with the fish in the sky? You'll be in a lake filled with oil? How does it feel that I'm in my prime and that I'm the future? You've been paying attention to what I've been posting so obviously you feel threatened. Unlike you, I know how to spell bore and I'll correctly use it in a sentence. You bore me and I'm done with you. I love how worried about the future you must be since you won't be around and since I'm apparently such a terrible person LOL! Go to bed old man. Sleeping
(This post was edited by FishingLunatic on Feb 13, 2017, 4:09 PM)
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
Haha old man I don't know if I believe you or if I even care. Your supposed degree is about engineering and mine is directly related to the topic of public lands. And guess what? I'm not done with school. I'll have my masters or phD in a few years. You were defeated with every lie or misrepresentation that you tried fooling this forum with. Oh the shame and humility of it all; how will I ever be able to deal with it? I would love to meet you in real life. Why, are you that much in need of a verbal butt whippin'? You haven't had a good response to any of what I've previously said or my most recent post. Yeah, probably so since truth and facts don't have any relevance in your world. Haha how does it feel that your days are coming to to an end? How does it feel that that when your time comes you won't be swimming with the fish in the sky? You'll be in a lake filled with oil? How does it feel that I'm in my prime and that I'm the future? That people of your ilk are the future disgusts me beyond belief. You've been paying attention to what I've been posting so obviously you feel threatened. Oh, woe is me; I'm cowering in fear right this minute. Unlike you, I know how to spell bore and I'll correctly use it in a sentence. Unlike you, I know how to use truth and facts and I'll correctly use them in a forum. You bore me and I'm done with you. I love how worried about the future you must be since you won't be around and since I'm apparently such a terrible person LOL! I'm wringing my hands and sweating bullets just thinking about it. Go to bed old man. Go back to the sand box kid and leave the intelligent discussions to the adults on here.
The child Lunatic has spoken; I'm shaking in my boots. I better just go lay down and wait to die.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:29 PM)
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Re: Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
And then there's this from an ADULT libtard:
Quote:
New Hampshire Democratic Party Chair Raymond Buckley had a strong yet simple message for fellow Democrats at a DNC Future Forum in Baltimore: "The party did not author a positive message during the 2016 election cycle. What we did is say, 'How offensive.' Grow up, that's not reality for most of America."[/quote]The adults actually do know what the real world is all about. Lunatic children do not! Smile

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:30 PM)
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Dont indulge Dubob its a scientific fact that Brain shrinks as you get older this is well documented fact by the Harvard journal of medicine, And the Oxford University Press the grey matter in Hippocampus decreases 13% and the White matter in the Frontal Lobe shrinks 24%.

Hippocampus is Memory learning and emotion the Frontal Lobe emotional expression, problem solving, memory, language, judgment,

By Age 74 areas like memory problem solving judgement and learning have a drastic decrease and Cognitive and motor stills rapidly decline

So arguing with a 74 year old is pointless Im surprised he even remembers what he posted. Angelic
(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 14, 2017, 8:47 AM)
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Re: [sinergy] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
sinergy wrote:
Dont indulge Dubob its a scientific fact that Brain shrinks as your get older this is well documented fact by the Harvard journal of medicine, And the Oxford University Press the grey matter in Hippocampus decreases 13% and the White matter in the Frontal Lobe shrinks 24%.

Hippocampus is Memory learning and emotion the Frontal Lobe emotional expression, problem solving, memory, language, judgment,

By Age 74 areas like memory problem solving judgement and learning have a drastic decreased.Cognitive and motor stills rapidly decline

So arguing with a 74 year old is pointless Im surprised he'll even remembers what he posted. Angelic

“The wise man questions the wisdom of others because he questions his own, the foolish man, because it is different from his own.” Leo Stein.
You and the lunatic child most assuredly fall into the later class. Good luck to both of you in life with that attitude; you’re going to need it. Cool


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
DuBob dont take it personal its the Internet, everyone talks crap on the internet. This is the reason I dont post in this forum or any internet forum that much any more. Plus Id rather spend time outdoors than sitting in front of my computer.

Regardless of our difference in opinion about land, water or what else we as a human race will always have a difference of opinion thats what make us human. The ability to have consciousness and to form thought
But that doesn't mean we need to be at a constant conflict live and let live and do what makes you happy are my mottos in life.

Tight Lines to you.
(This post was edited by sinergy on Feb 14, 2017, 8:55 AM)
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Re: [sinergy] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
sinergy wrote:
DuBob dont take it personal its the Internet, everyone talks crap on the internet. This is the reason I dont post in this forum or any internet forum that much any more. Plus Id rather spend time outdoors than sitting in front of my computer.

Regardless of our difference in opinion about land, water or what else we as a human race will always have a difference of opinion thats what make us human. The ability to have consciousness and to form thought
But that doesn't mean we need to be at a constant conflict live and let live and do what makes you happy are my mottos in life.

Tight Lines to you.
Apology accepted! Wink! Wink Wink! Wink

Now if the kid will just stop trying to play with the adults, we'd all be happy. Cool


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
I think all of us old people can take solace in this attached meme of wisdom.
image/png stupid people.png (1.24 MB)
(This post was edited by buckhunterhart on Feb 14, 2017, 9:46 AM)
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Re: [buckhunterhart] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
buckhunterhart wrote:
I think all of us old people can take solace in this attached meme of wisdom.
Smile

Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
Report Post | Register to Reply
Re: [buckhunterhart] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
Unlike Dubob, I don't really feel that way about the older population. I can just see that this argument wasn't going anywhere and I'm tired of being disrespected and I'm tired of him disrespecting over 50% of the population. That's the only reason I finally caved in and decided to say mean things about him. I think everyone can tell his overall disrespect for not only me, but for liberals and democrats in general. News flash...more people voted for another candidate and that's not even counting people who voted for third party candidates on either side. All dubob and some people in society are trying to do is create total division. It's beyond obvious by the way he addresses one side what his agenda is.
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
FishingLunatic wrote:
Unlike Dubob, I don't really feel that way about the older population. I can just see that this argument wasn't going anywhere and I'm tired of being disrespected and I'm tired of him disrespecting over 50% of the population. Unlike you, I don't make rash generalizations about what you may, or may not, feel or think about anybody else. The only disrespect I have on here is for your demeanor, attitude, and brash insistence that your point of view, and only your point of view, is valid. Just like most children. That's the only reason I finally caved in and decided to say mean things about him. That's what children do; they cave and throw a temper tantrum when they don't get there way. I think everyone can tell his overall disrespect for not only me, but for liberals and democrats in general. I have family members and many friends that are registered Democrats and we generally have civil, adult conversations about differences on political philosophy. They, unlike you, are willing and able to accept that my facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole. Children don't have that ability. News flash...more people voted for another candidate and that's not even counting people who voted for third party candidates on either side. News flash - President Trump had a majority of the Electoral College and has been officially declared the WINNER! Get over it! All dubob and some people in society are trying to do is create total division. I'm not, but the libtards sure as Hell are. Riots, destruction of property, inflicting bodily harm on individuals with differing political philosophy being shown on the nightly news almost daily. Show my just one video of any such lawlessness when bozo was elected in 2008 or 2012. It's beyond obvious by the way he addresses one side what his agenda is. You have absolutely no clue as to what my 'agenda' is and even if I told you straight up what it is, you'd disagree and throw a childish temper tantrum calling me a liar.
When you finally grow up and actually open your mind to the possibility that there are other, valid viewpoints that exist out there, even if you disagree with the premise of the viewpoint, come join the civil discourse in which most adults participate. The bottom line here is this: if you want respect, earn it!

Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:11 - When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
(This post was edited by dubob on Feb 14, 2017, 7:31 PM)
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
That's absolutely ridiculous. "The only disrespect I have on here is for your demeanor, attitude, and brash insistence that your point of view, and only your point of view, is valid". My demeanor was professional up until my last post. As you later would go on to say "there are other, valid viewpoints that exist out there, even if you disagree with the premise of them". You weren't disrespectful towards me and democrats/liberals because of our demeanor. You were disrespectful since the beginning and not just the last post like me because you are a complete hypocrite of what you just said above. I am open to other people's viewpoints and listen to them. It doesn't mean I'm going to believe them or agree with them but I give everyone a chance to speak. I spoke first and you nor anybody had to say anything let alone say things in a manner that lead to a debate.

"They, unlike you, are willing and able to accept that my facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole." After I spoke, you chimed in and whether intentional or not, you mislead some people. This absolute biggest lie is your tried putting words in my mouth...I never said the sky was falling. You had what you would call a temper tantrum and put words in my mouth. Secondly, you tried citing the number of retailers as the number of sponsors in an effort to make the significance of 5 retailers dropping out less. Third, you tried to bring 2016 outdoor shows into the equation when A) there was more sponsors that year because they are different year to year and B) Outdoor retailers weren't talking about not coming to the Utah show in 2016. Fourth, you tried to underestimate the number of retailers that would be lost by those 5 groups dropped out; when we used the numbers YOU provided, the average number of retailers per sponsor turned out to be close to 100. when you multiply that 100*5, that = 500...a lot more than your original claim of 50. Fifth, you literally were saying you didn't believe stuff that me and sinergy were telling you that literally came from a land transfer analysis report....you're being like the type of person that would say you don't believe smoking cigarettes causes cancer or something J/A like some people can smoke and not get cancer.

You were the one not accepting facts, not me. I probably wouldn't agree with your or some other people's philosophy for what you "disagree is right for society as a whole". In this case, I wouldn't have agreed with your perspective which i'm assuming is something along the lines of that these outdoor retailers threw a hissy fit and shouldn't have announced they were going to withdraw from the show. So, I actually agree with your quote of "facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole". I have more of a problem with you trying to argue against the facts in the 5 main points I addressed above than your presumed interpretation of the way the five outdoor retailer groups handled the situation. I don't feel like you did the first half of your quote of "being willing and able to accept that my facts are valid but disagree they are right for society as a whole".

About the Obama situation....this years election compared to 08 and 12 is an apples to oranges comparison. It's not justifying their actions by any means, but protester's aren't mad that a republican won...they are mad because Donald Trump won. It wasn't like it is today back when George Bush won before Obama took office either. Anyways, here is a video of people burning a flag as a Obama/Clinton protest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh5tsfJnYj4 Trust me...you can find more while Clinton was running or before Obama started both of his terms if you look hard enough. Anyway, like I said before the actions of some of these protests are inexcusable and I'm not justifying their actions but the people aren't mad a republican won...they're mad Donald Trump won; this is an apples to oranges situation with Obama.

To be honest this thread was meant to be more like a current event and not meant to turn into a debate. I'll probably comment if I see a fishing post/story that I like of your's Dubob. But I'm not going to be spending this much time on the internet arguing anymore.
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Re: [FishingLunatic] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to


Smile
Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 76 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss
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Re: [dubob] Utah lost Patagonia and likely other Outdoor Retailers In reply to
dubob wrote:
FatBiker wrote:
Bob, precisely my point. The cleaning station still isn't fixed after a bunch of folks led by you (thank you) brought it to their attention.
Minor point, I know, but the cleaning station is NOT going to be fixed. It's going to be replaced. Just a tad more involved and I expect (hope) it to take place this Spring.

Good news Bob, just got back for the South marina, at Willard and low and behold there was a brand new fish cleaning station sitting in front of Willy's trailer, in the camp ground. Willy is the camp ground host there for the last two years and has been done a great job of taking care of that place since he took over.The vault toilet is finally open, thanks to him and he claimed they will be installing the new cleaning station within the week, yahoo.SmileCool Hopefully that means sometime in the next month it will be finished. Just though you and Larry might be interested.


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