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My three knots

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My three knots
As long as I can remember my knot has been the palomar in every possible situation. A couple years ago I started using very small hooks that didn't work with the palomar, not being very skilled at tying I had to rely on what I could do with the uni-knot and never felt comfortable with any variation and needed something that would fit my needs.
First was something like a uni-knot with the tag end tied to the shank with a double overhand knot, or better. Basically using a less trusted knot extended onto the hook, creating buffer zone for slipping and a baitholder effect, created for and tested with mico-fishing along with heavy line. *Discontinued using*
Second is my new favorite, first tied this week.Roughly a palomar on the shank that is pulled to the top and a second knot secured behind the eye but not through it so the force is pulled from behind the hook shank. Thought it would hurt the hookset but it seemed to double or triple expectation. -Not how it was tied, actually did thread the line through the eye. Then form a loop and twist the tag end two or more times around the loop and main line, finally thread the tag end through loops formed by the previous step. Tighten enerything carefully and wet. Basically like adding a half a uni-knot on top of the palamar, keeping a low profile and ensuring the shank knot wont get loose. Got a picture of the latest version tied to cheap 8 lb test, guessing .011 diameter , the 6 lb is .009. -AA battery to compare size, tag end points from under the eye pointing towards the hook point, thinking of leaving the tag end long with thicker line to see if it could help prevent snags.
Last one, thought of this morning,probably already named due to its simplicity; A palomar on the shank, but the line goes through the back of the hook eye first, a little tricky with a small shank. Kind of a easy snell effect, leaving some room for imagination. Going to focus on this last one next time.
(This post was edited by willami on Jul 5, 2018, 5:26 PM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
*Discontinued*Tying a 6lb leader today to be tied to 8lb (both cheap monos) I realized I'm not a big fan of the surgeon loop or any others I've tried. Thinking the larger test would damage or cut the line when tied it was natural to need a double loop here and a after a minute I tied one that was a little difficult but felt natural after a couple more times.

All I did was best described as double surgeon, start by doubling the line with about twice the length of how much you use for a surgeons, then simply quadruple the line and instead of two loops to finalize it I just did one and tightened it carefully and wet. You'll see a third loop which I used to help tighten it by putting my finger tip through the two loops and another through the one, pulling gently away from each other.
The final thing should have two identical loops close together, with a loop on the below it, and a free tag end, leaving room for experimenting or just cut off with a little slack.

(This post was edited by willami on Jul 6, 2018, 9:02 AM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
In an attempt to create a new, working knot (for fun or lack of anything else to do) I came up with the W knot.
Kind of tricky and questionable so theres a good chance its original at least, feels somewhat familiar so who knows.
Thinking double palamar and going for it it came out looking pretty odd but surprisingly strong, leaving three tag end when trimmed. Not sure why or how I'd use it, assuming its probably weaker than the palamar and harder. Maybe the extra two line ends could protect the knot a little from a slip weight on top of a swivel instead of a bead.. Tried it on 6 and 15 lb, the 15 was hard to tighten and its not very clear how that should be done, the results very.
First step is kind of like the palamar (double line, thread into eye) then I pull the doubled line over itself like in the first picture, a long doubled line helps,
slide the hook more to the right, and pinch to make a kind of bow, then tie (loop) the left bow over the right one along with the tag end,then bring the hook through double loops ( the two without the tag) like the last step of the palamar. Then figure out some way the tighten by pulling and forming, however it finally has a knot with a loop and a tag end to cut, forming the w on top. Pretty confusing but hopefully the pictures help.
Bringing only one loop under the hook will basically tighten without a loop remaining, looking the same as a palamar.
(This post was edited by willami on May 30, 2018, 7:55 PM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
Interesting, I'll have to give that a try.

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Re: [wiperhunter2] My three knots In reply to
It was kind of fun to tie, probably not one I'd bet my life on but might try it in a low risk situation, thinking under 4lb test when using a slip weight or float against the knot, possibly protecting it from wear or jamming.
Also they should all be considered untested so far for strength. I did test one that I just made and will try to give legible instructions.
The first step requires the previously mentioned knot where you tie a palamar to the shank but I didn't practice it enough to make good instructions.
This is the best way to do what I'll refer to as the palamar shank knot #2. Starting, you thread the line through the back of the hook eye and push it up the line to get it out of the way, tie your double loop for the palamar ( making it kind of short and half tight) Next bring your hook back down and put the point through the the the two loops and bring the end loop around the point (basic palamar) Tighten carefully by pulling on the the single tag end and the main line (feeding the main line through through the eye towards the knot, its not easy to tighten the main line if it is going through the eye) Seems to be the trickiest part for me, the harder you have to pull to tighten, the more stress and wear you on the knot, sometimes pulling the loop and tag end at the same time or separately.
Should have a good palamar on the shank with the main line through the back of the eye. (p.s#1 being just the knot on the shank, pulled up to the eye)
(This post was edited by willami on Jul 5, 2018, 5:00 PM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to

The next knots are in the making but could be called the screw knot, the double helix and snelamar (since searching snelamar doesn't get many result its probably free). Culminating into something close to what I've been wanting , combination of a snell and palamar.
After the first step, position the well formed knot about 3/4 more/less down the shaft. Keeping everything tight, pinch and rotate the knot a number of times, depending on the size of the line and shaft, (more twists = less slip maybe) creating twists on the shaft with the main line, then with the tag end twist up from the knot to the hook eye equal times(think I used 4 twists) but opposite direction, then feed the tag end through the front of the hook, either cut with a little remaining or it can be secured a couple ways for no slip ( for the basic screw twist just use one direction with the tag end -over the untwisted main line and secure it by looping with a couple twist or something.
Theoretically the double helix can slip its hold when pull near breaking strength, maybe surviving a short burst of breaking force, the twist may also have bait holding qualities? Probably too risky to start using it on big game.
-To get the snelamar, push from the bottom of the knot up to the eye,with fingers or nail, gently pulling main line. Pulling the know back down can reverse the slip.
One con of keeping the screw or d.h on the shaft would be if something like a walleye bit through it, or if the slip effect is too loose the hook might not set right. Specifically thought it would be best on catfish and catfishing baits.
Have to say the my money is on the snelamar out of them all.
(Side note) First screw knot tested by pulling 6lb mono broke about an inch above the knot, then 3 out of four other knots broke around the same area - last tested (snelamar in picture) was roughly made, then reversed five times, it broke 2'' above the knot. The knot looked shot but pulling on it caused the loops to unwind with the p.s knot remaining intact and the undone line still strong, couldn't get it to break by hand, needed a pencil and pliers for enough leverage. -After sleeping on it, a easier name that describes its shape and action should be the DNA knot, if it can be refined or exacted it would be nice not to have a ridiculous name. Not too confident the cushioning or bait holding theory will hold true, seems impossible to test, especially if bite offs are likely. Still somewhat possible that it could withstand 3 stages of shock that exceed breaking strength or something like that, just as likely to have problems with hook setting or fish shaking the hook out. Maybe a sheath of shrink tubing could be used to cover the shaft and knot if someone were to seriously consider the uncoiled type..

The p.s #2 is a good knot by itself but feels like its easier to break, even though it also broke well above the knot it seems like the dna was more resistant. Also pressing against the bottom of the hook eye seems risky and unpredictable.Trickiest part still seems to be getting the palamar to tighten easy, try to tie the loop real close to the end of the double line and wet everything.

DNA notes; going to settle on three twists each way, the final step of tightening seems best to alternate pulling on both lines and pushing the knot up, -this should keep it symmetric and allowing you to keep a desired amount of room for "cushioning and stretching, should remind you of a caterpillar walking when forming -started keeping a bowl of water for lubricating as needed.
Still finding it difficult but tied it about a dozen times and only had the knot break once. Last one felt best but looked a bit sloppy, still felt strongest- it might look a bit bell shaped at the end, lots of room for techniques or improvement.
minute change : annoyingly as is the tag end needs to be secured or left extra long.
Another last minute fix : after the second set of loops insert the tag through the back of the hook eye and back down towards the point, start to tighten the knot but around half way insert the tag end through the opening loops near the bottom (going to try for two or three ) then tighten the rest of the way about the same as before but with the main line while helping to push the knot up the shank- hopefully keeping the tag end out of the way and pointing down behind the hook.

Final notes; After way too much confusion and annoyance I'm throwing out the DNA knot as well as the spring/double helix. Still think the DNA can be stronger, leaving a whole half inch or more tag line might be best.

Introducing the new prototype, going back to calling it the snelamar.
First step remains the same, second step just twist the tag line around the shank and main line 6-7 times -don't do the pinch/twist method, but one or two twists are optional - insert the tag end through the front ( remember to start the whole thing by going through the back ) and the most important change - start bunching the line up to get loops forming on the shaft, insert the tag end through two or more loops that form , then bunch up and pull main until it looks and feels good, make sure the tag line stays out of the way and check that its tight before cutting. Results might easily very. Also its not impervious to getting loose if the know itself is forced back down but its not going to unravel like the first ones.

Had to break down and use more of the snell knot than planned ; Using a match stick to wrap the line around the shank and main line, removing the stick and threading the tag end through all loops and tightening up to the eye.
Not too original, if anything else is added it will be the results of using it, just interested in a better hook set now.
*Most used knot so far has been the double shoe lace knot basically two double overhand knots if you think of the normal way as two overhands. The second step with the loops is a little hard to double and keep uniform.
Used to tie a extra knot with the loops but it seems harder to untie and harder on the laces.

(This post was edited by willami on Aug 5, 2018, 7:25 AM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
Final knot notes:
Was about to go test the snelomar until a thunderstorm stopped me so this is a good time to conclude my three knots as well as remove most of the pictures to save space. Most all the knots are for use on plain hooks but might possible on some jig hooks or other terminal tackle.
The final three knots will be the Palomar shank knot #2(PS#2), Snelomar and introducing the True Snelomar or TS for short ( hopefully a fitting name ).
Starting with the PS#2, it can be very difficult to tie and is the base for all the knots. Also when I refer to the palomar I mean the most basic form, not doubling the line through the eye or the loop. Good note for tying a leader with these knot is to start the knot without the hook on the line, then putting the hook through the palomar loops and over the hook, (makes it easier to tighten ) if not you can feed some of the main line through the eye and pulling the tag mostly will help reduce line damage. This can be a good knot for tiny hooks on mono or seems really natural on braided line, especially with a "semi snelomar like finish" Still make sure it looks and feels good before using it (had the most trouble with fluorocarbon). Probably mentioned that this knot was designed because I needed a way to tie palomar when the hookeye was too small for it, then all the prototypes were attempting to make it stronger and safer from the bottom of the hookeye, since it can vary greatly and may cut the line with the PS#2 alone. Also I think the snell type knot should give me a better hookset and doesn't slip around the eye like the normal palomar. Before starting the snelomar or TS I usually twist the knot once or twice so the line wraps around the shank. Note to self; used the PS knot for trailer or stinger hooks on ice jigs, seemed fine but try using a double loop next time.
The Snelomar is the final product of the spring, helix and dna prototypes that don't need to be remarked on but might be fun to tie again someday, so I'll keep it all up. Side note, I wouldn't trust the double loop, tied it once and it broke when testing, the W knot might be worth testing more, so I'll keep those pictures. The knot is simply the same as the PS#2 with a additional set of loops above it (like a snell knot) when tightened correctly it should look very dense and perfect like a snell with the palomar bulging out a little at the bottom. Its best to use something like a toothpick to wrap the line around ( so it tightens around the shank and mainline ) then feed the line through the loops down towards the hook point. Tightening the snell slowly while pulling the palomar up with it.
Happy with this knot and consider it the best for consistent results and will use it the most , maybe instead the palamar some situations.

Finally the True Snelomar is probably the strongest if done perfectly but is the hardest for me to tie with small hooks. Would suggest trying it on a larger hook first. Simply put it secures the main line of the PS#2 to the shank with a second piece of line. Basically a simple snell knot, use as much line as you feel comfortable with, use something like a toothpick to wrap line around the shank and main line, take the toothpick out and thread the tag end through the loops, tighten so the palamar knot is snug against the bottom of the loops.
Tested it with very good results, pros may be that you can use a different type of line, larger smaller, mono on fluoro, or maybe braid to mono? Also it protects and holds the PS#2 without tightening under stress ( hypothetically )

Sorry for anyone interested in any of these knots, not great at instructions or pictures but I'm willing to get into more detail if anyone is.

Two Snelomar with rough example of TS on left. (mistakenly put the line through the front of the eye in the middle knot, maybe doesn't matter much unless the eye is bent like the other hooks)

More notes;
When tying the arbor knot to your spool , make a extra loop around when tying the stop knot to make it a little larger and hopefully less likely to slip through.
Also refining the double shoe lace knot where you start with a double loop on the first step, then two (corrected from three) times around for the second step (loop the right loop around the left two times)
Continued testing and tying the snelomar has been good, as far as holding up to snags and fighting fish.
The PS#2 alone is working and hard enough to tie, probably won't use additional steps unless it seems necessary on different line or hooks. Also its hard enough to remove ( going to try finger nail clippers for cutting it. ) Feeling like the two areas I'll actually use these knots will be ultra light/ small hooks for the ps#2 or ultra heavy/braided setups with the snelomar.

double palamar ; probably harder to tie and weaker than the palomar.
Kind of similar to the W knot but hopefully much stronger. Medium difficulty, needs roomy hook eye.
Quadruple the line, just long enough to complete the knot, proceed like the palomar but two times around on the 2nd step- paying attention to form the loops along with the memory of the line)
The most difficult and important part is tightening. Avoiding pulling on the main line but trying the tag loop and single tag end carefully until it gives, maybe not trying to get it 100% tight is best. Cut the loop and mainline away leaving the W and four loops around the eye.
Actually feels pretty strong, could possibly be useful somehow..

(This post was edited by willami on Jul 5, 2018, 5:04 PM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
More Random shloging/gloging fish logs/fishing logs

Haven't tested it yet but the idea is that the large bullet weight will be more resistant to the current but allow you to feel the bite while the fish doesn't feel the weight ( like all slip weights) point facing away from the hook, the second weight is pointed towards the hook to possibly make it less resistant for the fish. THe second weight makes it harder for the leader to float off and the adjustable part helps when trout to sucker/chub fishing (I like 1 foot for trout, 6 inches for chub, 2 for sucker)

Testing wasn't too good, the two slip weight thing didn't really pan out. Going back to just big swivel or just enough split shot for leader sinkers.

Tried the adjustable weight out again, this time going through it twice before tying the knot to the string , then another string stop about 4 inches from the hook. It worked well but the weight string came off after a couple dozen casts but held overall. Got more on target this time and got 6 different species if crawdads count, still slow though.
Dismantled a insane trot line in a narrow area, the hook and bait dragging in the middle a inch below the water, no way to hook a fish but right along the most popular tubing spot, dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Need to remember pliers and tweezers. Up to 10 types of fish on the river now, no carp yet. Also, stop taking two poles, use a snap and bring multiple leaders.

Haven't had too many knot inspirations for about a month, around the same time I decided to stop drinking, wasn't mixing with the hot weather.
Instead here's a way to put pants on if you're like me and don't own shorts or waders but plan on doing some light wading.
Turn the pants inside out and put your feet through in the bottom of each leg, then pull the legs up basically putting them on inside out and upside down.. The idea is to have one long inward fold in the pant legs above the knee, folding in or out more to secure them.Should give you the fashionable look of cut offs without the ventilation.
Can be referred as the Inverted Pantaloon Dawning Technique For Shallow Wading or the IPDTFSW..

Messed around on the PS for a standard jig and came up with something different, calling it the PSSP, for palomar shank special.
Cut a length of line a little bigger than the size of leader you want, tie the ps#1 then push the knot towards the jig head, thread the main line through the hookeye at least 3 times, 4 if possible, then tie a loop or a swivel onto the top of the main line a clip the tag off.
The jig was off set at a slight angle and horizontal and resistant to slipping vertical.
Same knot can be applied to a plain hook too, maybe even as a snelomar. Thread the eye front to back on hooks / left or right on jigs.

More tedious,questionable knots.
Just saw an show with jimmy houston and his knot.
I thought of a knot around the time of the snellomar, kind of similar to this but not sure I ever tried it. Tied it today seemed good when finished, didn't test well so the winston churchill knot is discontinued.
Instead, the Huey Jimson Knot ...a new palamarized version where you twist a doubled line around the main lines 4x, then thread it through the space above the eye, then loop the tag around the hook/lure like the palamar, then somehow tighten into a odd looking knot with a tiny loop under it, did pass the 100% test but will try to improve it.
A good tight hold at least, maybe that could be a reason to use it..
Two twists will allow the extra loop to tighten and create something like the palamar, could call it a inferior palamar

When I tie a loop I usually double the line, then tie two over hand knots, instead of double over hand knot, just referring to that as the dentist loop unless I find a real name, since I've been going for a surgeons loop but failed.
But by making a third over hand knot below the first two knots( mine were at least 1/2 the way down the loop) it made it pretty durable and stronger. Probably not better than the real surgeon but added to the surgeon it might improve it too, its harder to tell since its stronger.
Could call the dental loop version the double dental and the surgeon version the dental surgeon.

(This post was edited by willami on Jul 24, 2018, 5:20 PM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
To help get away from knots I'm going to try to think of hacks/mods/tips for sinkers.

Hammering a bell/ swivel weight flat for current. pinch the eye of the weight closed a little so you don't need as big of a stop..

Read somewhere to hammer a jig head to a desired flatness or other shapes.
*flattened a fish head shaped jig and and shinned with a file and twisted some light copper wire to for a makeshift spoon like jig. use a anvil for flat sides or a vise for a flat bottom.

Dull any sharp edges on slip weights or damaged eyes.

Used a key chain ring as a alternative, rocks, bullets, broken jigs and other things can be sinkers ; finding sinkers is very easy around busy banks. Gravity and erosion are good to remember.

Casting (in a mold) sinkers isn't too hard with the right equipment.

Swivels be used as a light sinker to connect leaders.

Tying sting to line to attach split shot helps protect line.

If you can't use lead in the water, try depleted uranium, its got to be at least 50% heavier.

if the sinker doesn't have a round eye its probably not meant to be tied to line.

Go for as little weight as possible or as much if it helps a bobber.

Plastic clip on eyes are convenient and can be put on or taken off any time.

Had a decent quick trip this morning. Took a picture of the rig for memory if I lost it or to show as a example if I liked it.
Nothing new but the hook has thin copper wire wrapped around it, for fun mostly.
The weight was hammered and the split shot is pinched onto a sting that was tied twice to the line then made into a bow.

It worked pretty good, got my best trout yet probably, from a river, not giant but good for around here. Got a second smaller one after so it wasn't a complete fluke. Summers been pretty tough for trout fishing but the stormy weather might have helped.

Over 19'' with the mouth open. Beautifully wavy pattern.

Summer fishing was almost nonexistent this year but with about a month left theres still a chance at a good fish.
Things have been taking up my fishing time along with back/ knee pain and a messed up tendon.
Things like fighting off invading voles in trench warfare and other invading rodents in a voly war or voled war one (VWi) and other yard related stuff took up most of my time ; a steady amount of smoke in the air didn't help.
A rainy summer, along with a lot of watering helped me hone my night crawler hunting skills. Due to circumstances my watering went from heavy to what probably looks insane with the colder/rainier days.
To take advantage I plan of stocking up on worms for the fall and will try to add some tips in the next week.
Best light I've used this year was the rectangular magnetic type with a lot of LED's. Maybe starting with it dimmer, not new batteries at least. Controlling the angle and light intensity is easy, you can block off LED's with your fingers to tune into their sensitivity. I don't like red light, mine makes them harder to see and they react the same as with white light, never tried green but suspect it would make them blend with grass.. Headlamps are too high up and force me to bend too much.
Warmer and wetter makes them quicker and slipperier but maybe easier to get out of the ground without damage.

(This post was edited by willami on Aug 18, 2018, 9:00 AM)
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Re: [willami] My three knots In reply to
willami wrote:
To help get away from knots I'm going to try to think of hacks/mods/tips for sinkers.

If you can't use lead in the water, try depleted uranium, its got to be at least 50% heavier.

Now that is funnyWink

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