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Knots to ya

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Knots to ya
Since I have been roused out of my fetal position, from "lackafishy" fever, I decided to finish up a project I started some time back. It is a writeup on basic lure fishing...with the premise that it all boils down to PPP...Paint, Profile and Presentation.


In the section on Presentation I discuss line attachments, knots and rigs. Since we just had a couple of threads on lines and knots I thought I would cut out that section and post it for your enjoyment...or guffaws.


Let me know if you spot any glaring omissions...or have something else you would like to see covered.

application/pdf KNOTS & RIGS.pdf (1.09 MB)
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Thanks for posting your write-up.
You are very resourceful! Thumb up!
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Great work, TubeDude. Well written. Excellent illustrations.

Perhaps out of range for most here, but I have surf fishing line splice questions and I know you have salt water experience. I haven't surf fished yet, but have plenty of vacation time saved up for it.

With my surf fishing equipment I have line in both a selection of monofilament and braids, but I'm also considering purchasing some fancy spectra hollow core spliceable line to use with fluorocarbon leader. The leader slips inside the hollow core of the braid and makes a splice. I vaguely remember using this type of splice deep sea fishing for red snapper in the Gulf of Mexico about 40 miles off from Grand Isle, Louisiana as a child, but will need an update with new technology developments since then and how to select the proper combination to match leader diameter range to the line. It looks like a good system having high splice strength and very sleek flow through eyelets. I don't know enough to make the best choices of a match of line and leader and have been waiting until I find an experienced surf fishing guide to help me make my purchase selections to benefit from likely a lot of years of experience rather than my inexperienced guesses.

I'll need to learn more about the splice method for this type of line. I don't know if it fits your writeup to include some mention of this type of line and splice, but thought to mention it for you to decide.

https://www.google.com/...filetype=&as_rights=

Ronald :)
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Re: [RonPaulFan] Knots to ya In reply to
Glad you liked it. I'll get you a copy of the entire piece when it is finished. Probably be about 60 pages.



For attaching leader...or other line...to the hollow core stuff I might recommend the "needle knot". That is what some fly flingers use to attach leaders to their fly lines. If you check that link, you will find visuals and instructions on how to do it. The main idea is that you run a needle up through the end of the hollow core line for a short distance and pull the leader through. Then you make a kind of uni knot to secure it. I also like to wrap a layer of nylon thread over it to cinch it down and smooth it a bit. Finish it with some epoxy and it will zip through the guides easily while providing close to 100% line strength.

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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Great write up and extremely useful information.


"If I fished only to capture fish, my fishing trips would have ended long ago."
- Zane Grey
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Re: [RonPaulFan] Knots to ya In reply to
RPF, there is a new knot out there called the FG knot. It is a bit difficult to tie, but it connects braid with either mono or fluro. If you go to You Tube and search for "easy FG knot" that is the best demo of the knot I have seen. You get a 100% knot plus it runs through the guides very easily. I have been using it for about a year on my braid/fluro set up !! It was specifically designed to for heavy braid to heavy fluro setups like you are talking about.
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Good and helpful writeup thanks. I have recently found the "fg" knot for going from braid to fluorocarbons. Very tight and small. Haven't fished it yet but very eager to try .
New 8 foot heavy spinning rod, new Penn tidewater ss reel. (salt water)
Line is 50 lb. Sufix 832.
If you can't tell in going to Washington for some big water fishes.
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Re: [doitall5000] Knots to ya In reply to
The thing I don't like about the FG is that it can be very hard to tie while on the water, but mostly because it depends on the "Chinese handcuff" principle to hold the leader. The leader just sticks through the braid wraps and is held there ONLY by friction. The Alberto, the Albright, and the Red Phillips knots all use positive stops in the leader.

All of these knots can be made almost slip-proof with a drop of superglue.



Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Thanks for the great write up, Pat. It is all very useful information for a variety of tackle.

I have used the animated knots site a lot over the years. I know when I don't use a knot for awhile I need somewhere to go for a refresher course.Wink

Another device I've used the last few years to attach the leader to fly line is a slip on leader loop by Cortland. I never was fond of tying the nail knot with the heavy butt section of a tapered leader onto the fly line. Most tapered leaders come tied with a perfection loop so it is an easy connection although not the smoothest.

Thanks again for trying to educate us all.Smile
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Re: [RockyRaab] Knots to ya In reply to
Thanks i'll look at them. I want the best for that 40 pounder this summer.
(This post was edited by doitall5000 on Mar 3, 2019, 9:46 AM)
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Re: [gofish435] Knots to ya In reply to
Have you ever used those little barbed metal loops that you stick up inside the end of the flyline?




Or the little plastic things into which you put the knotted ends of both the fly line and the leader butt?


I have used the barbed metal rings and never had any failures with them.

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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
TubeDude wrote:
Have you ever used those little barbed metal loops that you stick up inside the end of the flyline? Or the little plastic things into which you put the knotted ends of both the fly line and the leader butt?

I haven't used the barbed metal loops but I have used the leader links before and they worked okay. Sometimes it was hard to get the knots back inside the slot for a clean connection.

I also at one time used a super glue attachment for the line to leader connection. You would take some acetone and soak about 1/2" of the end of the fly line for about 20 seconds and then strip off the outer coating with your fingernail. Then you would take the butt section of the tapered leader and push it up into the dacron core of the fly line as far as it would go and then soak the dacron with super glue. It made for a real clean attachment. I used that for years and then I started having some failures. I don't know if it was the glue, the leader material, or just the installer. Some fly lines have a solid core so this method wouldn't work for those.
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
I thought the barbed metal inserts were called Not-A-Knots but couldn't find any such on the internet. I did find the same thing called No-Not-Eyelets on Cabela's.

https://www.cabelas.com/...t-Eyelets/702058.uts

Hope this helps someone. I used them when I was a young man and more interested in fly fishing. Don't recall any failures.

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
((> ~ ~ }<((((> ~~ }<(((((> ~ ~ }<((((> ~ ~ }<((((>
~~~}<(((((((((< ><=;> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ }<((((>

"Blessings upon all that hate contention, and love quietness, and virtue, and Angling." - Izaak Walton
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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Thanks, Pat!

I see the FG knot is commonly used by surf fisherman to connect to their leaders.

I want my education on knots for the surf fishing I'll do for the first time on a vacation to be broad and with practice and testing of knots before I go to a coast. I'll certainly study the knots and practice.

But, the one I know the least about is the splice with the locking feature of hollow core braid over the much larger leader.

I have all of my other rods and reels for lighter duty and smaller fish and can easily do reel swaps on my surf fishing rods for lighter tackle for the smaller fish, but for my large Penn Spinfisher 10500 reels and based on only what I've been reading (and with no experience) I'm thinking of getting Jerry Brown Decade in 130 pound test and for surf casting with an 8 ounce weight and bait, they are commonly using fluorocarbon in 100 pound test as shock leader going all the way to the reel and a couple wraps for safety when power casting for distance. In these sizes, the leader diameter is much larger than the hollow core braid diameter even for the lower strength and will make a bulky knot and it has to go through the guides.

This is the line I'm considering:

https://alltackle.com/...le-spectra-2500-yds/

This line is rather expensive, so I want to get my choices of line and leader to be compatible before I purchase.

Some things I don't know are the cinch ranges for the various hollow core to the various leader diameters. It seems there should be a chart to be sure to select the combination to be within range, but I haven't found one.

For example, I know that the hollow core braid will only cinch down to it's particular minimum diameter, so it won't grip any leader near or smaller than that diameter and it will just slip out. I've been reading that leaders will slip out even when it is gripping a near minimal diameter leader that seems to hold when tested in your hands because it fails on the big fish because as the leader material stretches some, it's diameter decreases.

Since I want to purchase to have the line and have everything ready before I go on my surf fishing vacation, I want to make good choices even before I know what I'm doing. But, it's not like I'm committing to only one choice because I already have the lighter gear. For this huge reel, I'm selecting line and leader for it to be my heaviest choice and I like the idea of the hollow core splice for it.

Regarding knots, I see that most surf fishermen are using the FG knot with only twenty or thirty pound test and still using 60, 80 or even 100 pound test shock leaders to take the forces of distance casting and generally going by a rule of thumb of 10 pound test for every one ounce casted, so with an eight ounce weight and bait, 100 pound test shock leader is right in that range to not break loose upon casting. Then flying through the air, the lower pound test braid gives them greater casting distance than my heavier proposed choice that will enable the splice type line to leader connection.

They mostly use the lighter line for achieving a little more casting distance, but also because they are most often using much smaller reels and they want line capacity for when a large fish runs against the drag of the reel. With line capacity for that, they can still bring in the large fish even with lower pound test line.

But, with this huge reel, I'll have 40 pounds of drag and plenty of line capacity regardless of thicker line.

I will lose some casting distance which is a choice I make mitigated by my intention to use my strength combined with resolve to learn from a surf fishing guide (haven't found the one yet) to be a powerful caster to achieve desired distance anyway. The great breaking strength is for this reel to be dedicated to targeting the larger fish.

For my lighter equipment for when the smaller fish are biting, I expect I will use the FG knot on still heavy shock leader when using 8 ounces of lead. That weight not only is to get it out far, but also to hold to the bottom in heavy surf when using bait.

But, I will also at times rig light leader for casting lures and that isn't much weight and doesn't need a shock leader and I'll use an appropriately rated rod. I'll have a large selection with me since the surf fishing I'll be choosing will be driving on the beach in search of the seagulls diving into the boils created by large migratory predator fish feeding on the bait sized fish. I'll rig my surf fishing vehicle with sand tires with a large rod rack for quite a selection to be ready for whatever fishing presentation becomes appropriate at any given moment and will be able to quickly switch to what's best for the moment.

I already have a large variety of rods, reels and tackle, so I'm not trying to achieve what I already have for my heaviest set up. I want to set that one up heavy for the big fish and pick the appropriate one for the fish that are running at the time. I actually have two of the same reel and can have one set up on lighter tackle should I choose that, so I still have flexibility.

Ronald :)
(This post was edited by RonPaulFan on Mar 3, 2019, 2:11 PM)
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Re: [RonPaulFan] Knots to ya In reply to
It seems that up to this point you are buying tackle to be prepared for the most hostile surf conditions and the largest surf fish you are ever likely to encounter.


A better approach is to first decide on where you want to go surf fishing...and learn about the species and conditions you are likely to encounter.


I have fished the surf/shoreline all along the west coast of the US, several places along the Gulf of Mexico, down in Mexico along the Sea of Cortez, on both coasts of Florida, and a few spots along the Atlantic coast. With only a few exceptions, any tackle heavier than 15 to 20# ratings was an overkill situation. In many of those areas you can catch lots of fish on the equivalent of freshwater bass gear...and in some places ultralight spinning works fine on the species at hand.


Having long heavy rods capable of chunking big sinkers a hundred yards offshore can be helpful in some places. And if you are fishing for big striped bass...or sharks...stout tackle is great. But I really think that unless you are targeting big fish in heavy surf you are bringing guns to a knife fight.

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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Thanks, Pat!

All of that is true and perhaps I appear to be stubborn by not taking seasoned advice which I do recognize as true.

The preparedness for one guided surf fishing vacation for learning as much as I can from the guide will not be limited to just one surf fishing vacation.

Sometime in my life, I'll have a sailboat and enjoy traveling coasts and even overseas and that will be much more than a vacation as it will be a lifestyle, so adding the knowledge and skills of surf fishing to what I've already learned in many other styles of fishing will be useful. I'll have access to river and inland fishing to use what I already know. I agree that much of the equipment I've already been using will often be just right for the surf most of the time.

I realize that not every fish in the ocean is big, but some are. I don't have to fish for the big ones, but I want to do exactly that. I do very much want to include targeting the big fish and that is what I will tell my surf fishing guide (when I find one) and we will pick the season and location along with migration patterns to target big fish with surf fishing.

Specifically, that is the surf fishing experience I seek. Otherwise, I wouldn't really need a guide and can just opportunistically fish for whatever happens to be there for wherever I fish and whenever I happen to arrive at a coast.

But, I want to learn what is very different from what I've ever done before in fishing to learn something new and include that in my set of fishing skills.

That's why I want to include the proper equipment with the proper tackle for big ocean fish into my already large selection that covers the range from ultralight to this (as soon as I add the proper line since I already have everything else for it) monster which I agree is a monster and I also agree would be overkill for most fishing should I choose it when it's not needed. But, since I will have the lighter gear with me, I'll be choosing the correct selection for the fish that are biting at the time for until we succeed at seeking out and come upon the larger fish I'll specifically target.

Which fish will that be? I don't know yet. Where? I don't know yet. But, that's why I seek a very experienced surf fishing guide.

But, what I do know is that when immersed in that vacation, I don't want to use any of that premium and expensive fishing time to then go shopping. I want to have the gear right there in the rod rack ready to cast and if some rods don't get used, then I'm fine with that.

Ronald :)
(This post was edited by RonPaulFan on Mar 3, 2019, 3:03 PM)
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Re: [RonPaulFan] Knots to ya In reply to
"Which fish will that be? I don't know yet. Where? I don't know yet."

If your new all terrain vehicle is up for it, you should drive over to Hawaii. There are a few spots with deep water close to shore that hold some of the biggest and baddest fish to be had while surf fishing. These are the "ulua"...giant trevally. You almost can't use tackle too heavy for the hand-to-fin combat these tanks dish out. Look 'em up on the interweb.

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Re: [TubeDude] Knots to ya In reply to
Smile

In time. That will be after I have a sailboat. There will be many islands and coasts in my sailboat traveling future.

I've got the rod and reel for it -- just need the proper line for those larger fish.

But, yes, those fish are worthy of heavier line, so I need to learn the hollow core braid splice for the largest reel in my collection.

Ronald :)
(This post was edited by RonPaulFan on Mar 3, 2019, 3:55 PM)