Fishing

HUMMM I WONDER IF DROUGHT PLAYED A PART IN YUBA OR MAYBE DRAINING IT. NOW WALLEYE'S HAVE BEEN IN THE PROVO RIVER FOR YEARS BEFORE THERE WAS A EVEN A DAM FOR JORDANELLE. NOW WITH THEM BEING IN THERE FOR 7 YEARS NOW SENCE THE FIRST GILL NETTING IF THEY WERE GOING TO DESTROY THE LAKE AS YOU SAY. IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED BY NOW I WOULD THINK.BUT I ALSO GUESS BASS NEVER EVER HAVE A BOOM AND BUST ON THERE OWN ONLY OTHER FISH DO IT TO THEM. I LOVE BASS FISHING BUT MAN LETS GET REAL HERE. WALLEYES ARE NOT THE END OF THE WORLD, TROUT ARE LOL



Remember it's the strange people that change the world. People that look at life thou different eyes then those of the norm. YOU KNOW THE SO CALLED FREAKS...

Everyone seems to be missing the point. Before the BB'rs start stocking lakes that have perch in them...and upsetting the natural balances or whatever balance there is in a particular lake, they need to take into consideration just what or who is eating that particular food source.

If walleyes, bass, trout, perch and humans are all predating the perch...what other food source is left to sustain the predators once the smaller perch are consumed, and the breeding stock is taken by fisherman.

Some people think there are crawdads in Jordanelle for the smallmouth, but in the past couple of years...the DWR have not found any evidence of crawdads in Jordanelle...so without the perch remaining viable and without the chubs...the predators will eventually starve. Those that survive will be feeding on each other.

There needs to be an alternate food source...like shad or shiners put in all the lakes that have walleye.

I don't think the walleye is evil and I like to catch them as well as the other guys, but I also like to have a healthy fishery...with big fish. Like the smallmouth are in Jordanelle right now ... and Deer Creek's huge wallleye when it was in it's hayday.

I am tired of a boom and bust fishery...every time a bucket biologist decides they know more than the DWR.

I don't like every decision the DWR makes, but I have to agree with them where walleye is concerned.

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....

"There needs to be an alternate food source...like shad or shiners put in all the lakes that have walleye."

Great idea, but it aint going to happen, because the powers that be (primarily the feds) will not allow it.




Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish goes home through an alley.
-- Anonymous

I agree with almost everything bassrods says.

I don't think adding more prey is the answer anywhere. If you have a problem with coyotes, do you add more rabbits to feed them? Or do you try to lower the number of coyotes?

the problem with walleye is that they reproduce to easily in Utah's reservoirs. They reproduce and reproduce and reproduce until there are too many of them. The prey gets spread too thin. The answer is to control to number of predators. You can't do that with walleye.

Lakes can only hold so many pounds of fish per acre. When that limit is met (predators + prey) you cannot just add more fish (prey) to the mix and expect it to help. You have to reduce numbers of fish. The equation is not helped by walleye eating all the prey -- that doesn't lower the pounds per acre of fish -- walleye quickly fill the gap created by reduced numbers of prey. Pretty soon you end up with a lake at carrying capicity consisting of only walleye -- what do they eat then? BOOM!



I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
Dr. Raymond Stantz

PBH,

Can you clarify what is it about those fed regulations and its red tape regarding the introduction of gizzard shad and other baitfish? What's going on? What's the idea and the purpose behind the red tape? What is it that we need to do to get through the red tape, and make it disappear? How many states are limited to this red tape?

It sounds as if gizzard shad is illegal, therefore must be lumped together with illegal drugs. All of this is very perplexing to me.

Would you educate us on this matter?

My mother always did tell me, "if you want something bad enough, then you have to work very hard at it for it to happen".




Please practice "Catch and Release All Trout so the Walleyes can eat 'em!"

Forever trollin' for walleyes! (Future PWT angler)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9Qh-0jfio

paul I believe the reason is not the species, but rather the drainage. Anything that drains into the Colorado River system cannot be planted with such things. There are several endangered species in the Colorado River system, like the humpback chub and razorback sucker or something like that. I'm pretty sure that has something to do with it.




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Catman,

That's a plausible theory... however I don't recall hearing about Utah Lake, Yuba, Willard, Deer Creek, and Jordanelle ever draining into the Colorado river. If anything those lakes have rivers flowing west into the wasatch front with the exception of Yuba's sevier river flowing west somewhere else. It still doesn't make any sense for the fed regs for those lakes. UNLESS the feds are worried about bucket biologists?!




Please practice "Catch and Release All Trout so the Walleyes can eat 'em!"

Forever trollin' for walleyes! (Future PWT angler)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9Qh-0jfio

I have a little somthing to add to this. instead of having perch as the forage base it should be bluegill. for a couple of reasons. a 12in.
bluegill is a pretty big around slab and it will take a pretty big walleye to eat him, on the other hand a 12in. perch is a pretty small around fish and a pretty small walleye could eat him with no problem. I caught a 22in. walleye a long time ago in D.C. and that fish had 2 fresh 6in. perch in the stomach and I caught him on a 7in. rapala. what I'm trying to say is I don't think a 22in. walleye would get a 6in. bluegill down his throut very easy, so once a bluegill reaches about 6 to 8 in. you have a prim spawning bluegill that dosen't have to worry (too) much about getting eaten up by small walleye. just my dime, (inflation ya know) later chuck

Paul -- it's not only the Colorado River Drainage. It's all drainages. Every drainage has some native species. Introducing non-native species to any drainage is becoming harder, and harder for the DWR. Sometimes, this is very good, and sometimes it is a very bad joke.

With that being said -- again, the problem is NOT forage. The problem is predators that reproduce beyond the carrying capacity of our lakes. We need to be able to control the numbers of fish. Native fish DO NOT have this problem. Can anyone name me a lake that has a problem with Cutthroat overpopulating, and eating themselves out of house and home? Now, look at Brook trout -- how often do you see overpopulated brook trout lakes in the Uintahs? You also see it with brown trout. Perch. Walleye.

I'm not asking to eliminate all non-native species. I love rainbow trout, brook trout, smallmouth bass, lake trout....but there has to be some control, and right now there is no way to control a population of Walleye. Adding more forage fish is NOT a solution. All that does is compound the problem (add more food = more prey = less food = prolonged BUST cycle.) You have to limit the predator (walleye).

That is why I do not like walleye in Utah. Wipers are a much better solution for those who want to catch a big, tasty, hard-fighting fish.



I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
Dr. Raymond Stantz

Paul, it is my understanding that Gizzard shad have ruined some fisheries back east, due to their ability to reproduce very rapidly and grow to propotions that most game fish wouldn't dream of consuming. If this forage were to be introduced to other waters in the state, it would only be a matter of time before bucket bios would have them everywhere, and that would not be good for any species. I believe that is why (and help me with this one fellow BFT'ers) that you cannot have in your possesion dead or alive - Gizzard Shad. This limits the possibilities of them ending up in live wells or buckets to be transported to other waters. Bluegill or Crappie might be an option for forage and provide youngsters with the opportunity to catch fish that capture their attention. Let the dialog begin!!!

MOORE PEOPLE LERN HOW TO CATCH EYES AND OTHER BIG PREDITORS WILL HELP THE #,S. THIS IS WHY MOST OF US EYE GUYS SHARE SO MUTCH INFO ON THE SUBJECT OF CATCHING EYES. WHY WONT UTAH ALOW LIVE BAIT ON WATERS THAT HOLD EYES? IT WILL HURT TROUT FISHERIES I GET THAT BUT CERTAIN LAKE CAN BENNAFIT BY IT. STARVAION FOR EXAMPLE. SOME CHUBS WILL GET OF HOOKS AND SURVIVE TO BREED. OTHERS WILL BE DISCARDED WHEN FISHERMEN LEAVE TO MUTURE AND SPAWN. AND PEOPLE WILL HARVEST MOORE EYES. IFF THE LIVE BAIT CAN ONLY BE SOLD AT THE AREAS WITH EYES BY MARINAS. AND ANY ONE CAUGHT USING LIVE BAIT IN ANY OTHER WATER LOST FISHING PRIVLIGES FOR LIFE AND A 10,000 $ FINE AND LOSS OF ALL EQUIPMENT IN POSSESION. AND A 1 YR MANDATORY JAIL SENTECE FOR ALL VIOLATORS. THEN WE COULD ALL ENJOY ANOTHER WONDERFUL TYPE OF FISHING FOR EYES THAT IS PROBLY BEST PRESSENTATION OF ALL FOR THEM.

You are half right I think? what about the smallmouth and the way the size limits are, with live bait they take it so deep that most would die.

I know that the shad is in the Colorado now, Lake Powell has them.
Deercreek, Jordanelle Yuba and Willard all drain in the great salt lake or out to the west and dry up. and one more thing why not take the limit off the walleyes like they do the strippers or put a 50 fish limit on them.
But to me it seems that if the food is eating up you put in more food and take the limits off. Not wait for years like they did with lake powell and yuba.

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....

I don't understand why a fish that is NOT supposed to be in a lake (walley - DC) even has a limit. Why does the DWR protect a fish that was illegally introduced?

Once again, adding more food to an overpopulated situation will not do any good. It would only do harm. You can't pour 5 gallons of water into a container that only holds 4 gallons...it just doesn't work. You don't have to look any further than Starvation (such an ironic name) to see evidence.



I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
Dr. Raymond Stantz

The reason Utah doesn't allow the use of live fish as bait is because of the problem Bassrods has already alluded to: the transport of live bait and the release of live bait into a lake/reservoir is what is ruining many of our waters. Scenario: fishermen wants to use gizzard shad as a bait fish at Deer Creek. He catches a bucket full of nice bait-sized shad takes them to Deer Creek and then releases the fish he doesn't use into the reservoir. 3 years later Deer Creek has a sizable population of shad, the Feds step in because of their possible detriment to endangered June Suckers, and call for the immediate poisoning of the whole reservoir.

The use of live bait fish should be disallowed. I agree with Bassrods and PBH. Walleye are a poor game fish for Utah because their population cannot be controlled and they hurt other great fishing options....in Jordanelle, walleye will drastically hurt the smallmouth. What a shame.

i can name a lake that the cutthroat have become overpopulated and eaten themselves out of house and home. currant creek! has anyone else taken a fishfinder and seen the sheer numbers in their? i trolled it quite seriously last year for two days. the biggest cutt i saw was 16 inches...is their anything more sad than a nice cutt that has that big head and starving body? i dont think so. if you dont believe me- go up and drop a worm in their sometime...its a frenzy and a fight for your worm! they are desperate. ive been fishing it for years, and the cutt numbers need to be reduced. of course, with trout its as easy as raising the limit a hair.

and again, being pro trout, i dont see a problem with deer creek. my grandpa has been trolling it for a long, long, time. he quit fishing it about 20 years ago because of the perch. he couldnt even let a line out without catching a perch. now, ive been fishing it for 3 years, ive never caught a perch their. (my point? a fishery's health is relative!)

READ MY POST AGAIN. THE PART ON PENALTIES. IT WORKS FOR MANY OTHER STATES WHY NOT HERE? EVEN IN WYOMING IT WORKING FOR THEM AND THEIR WALLEYE WATERS. ALLINDER PRES AND FOUNDER OF INFISHERMAN AND WALLEYE INSIDER GOES THERE EVERY YR OR TWO AND MAKES MOVIES OF THEIR KILLER EYES. AND HUGE TROUT. SO EXPLAIN THAT TO ME WHY IT WORKS FOR ABUCH OF OTHER PROGRAMS ACROSS THE NATION. EVEN CALIFORNIA THE LIBRAL STATE ALOWS IT.. GO FIGURE... PENALTIES ARE THE KEY IT WORKS OTHER PLACES.

Current Creek is stocked pretty heavily with the cutthroats. Yes there are a lot of fish in there, but it's not from natural reproduction (although I'm sure that spawning does contribute to it to a certain extent). My understanding is that Current Creek is managed as a "buffer" against any claims that cutthroat numbers are low. (i.e. the lawsuit seeking protection of Bonneville cutts). The idea being that if there are a number of lakes which are filled with strong populations of cutts that no one can say that populations atre threatened. However, the person that told me this could have been totally full of it and it may be wrong.

Also, in contrast to what you've noticed, I'm of the opinion that the size of the cutts has actually increased over the last five years. I never used to catch fish over 16 inches, but the last two years that I have fished it at least 1 in every 4 fish was over the 16" mark.


**Yo pesco, por lo tanto yo soy.**

The use of live bait fish works well in many places, I don't know about Utah because theyare not allowed here. I used Golden Shiners in Southern California and they have not ruined any fisheries that I am aware of. In the upper Midwest they are used substantially for Walleyes, and other gamefish. However, you bring up a good point with respect to the native fish that are on the endangered species list and the impact that non-native fish might have on their environment. Nearly every species of fish in Utah has been introduced with the exception of the Bonneville Cutthroat. I myself love to fish for all types of fish, they each pose unique and interesting techniques and challenges. Whether Walleyes should or shouldn't be here is a topic you can debate all day long, the bottom line is they are sought after by many anglers in the state and contribute revenues to many local merchants and state agencies that help manage our great fisheries.

yeah...it's working wonders in Wyoming...so well, in fact, that reservoirs like Big Sandy Reservoir are chuck full of illegally introduced fish...so well, in fact, that Wyomings regs are probably going to lead to a major change in Flaming Gorge because of the burbot that have been found in the Green River. Bucket biologists are a major problem...but increasing the penalty won't necessarily help. When, in fact, was the last time you ever even heard of someone getting caught illegally transporting fish?Allowing the use of live fish as bait will only increase our state's problems with introduced species.

Heck, Utah already has a major problem with bucket biologists. Now, you want to make it legal for certain waters to allow the use of live bait? Let's open Pandora's Box while we're at it!



Fonduvfishing -- I can name you 1 water right here in Utah that has been ruined due to the illegal introduction of Golden Shiners by a fisherman. New Castle Reservoir has been infested with these fish for a number of years. The fishery has completely crashed, unless of coarse you like to fish for Golden Shiners.

Here are but a few other fisheries that have been hurt by the introduction of live bait:

Fish Lake -- perch
Mantua -- perch
Panguitch lake -- chubs
Strawberry reservior -- chubs



I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
Dr. Raymond Stantz

I'm sure there are more waters that have been ruined by Golden Shiners, etc. Let me clarify what I should have added to my statement: I don't know of any waters in Southern California that have been ruined by the use of shiners as live bait. Hope that helps.

WHY NOT? ISNT IT GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY? ISNT IT ALREADY? ITS JUST A MATER OF TIME WITH THE BB,S. WALLEYE WILL SHOW IN THE BERRY IN BEAR LAKE AND SOME OTHERS. AND IF WALLEYE ARE SUCH A GOOD CLENSING TOOL WHY NOT EVERY WATER WITH ELEGLE BAIT FISH. CHEEPER THAN TREATING IT WITH ROTE. SOME DAY ALL WATERS WILL BE DOMINATED BY EYES AND SHINERS CHUBS. HOPE I LIVE TO SEE IT.

I dubbed this the thread of the year! Most informational banter here so keep up the good work boys!

I guess walleye is a reality here in Utah whether people like it or not. The truth is, we have a real growing population of walleye anglers here in Utah... because people love the challenge of catching an eye and having it for a real sweet dinner! Can you imagine a yummy monster walleye's white meat steaming on a dinner plate?! Ahhhhh the humanity!




Please practice "Catch and Release All Trout so the Walleyes can eat 'em!"

Forever trollin' for walleyes! (Future PWT angler)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu9Qh-0jfio

I realize it isn't one of the most talked about bodies of water, but you could add Koosharem Reservoir to the list of bodies of water that has been repeatedly ruined by the illegal introduction of chubs.


Bragging may not bring happiness, but no man having caught a large fish goes home through an alley.
-- Anonymous

Going back to Paul's earlier question on some of the legal reasons preventing the planting of forage fish, the June sucker in Utah lake is a listed threatened/endangered fish. So, like the Colorado River system, it would be impossible for DWR to legally introduce a foreign species into the Provo River waters because of the Endagered Species Act. Willard, being the "end of the line", was a perfect spot for introducing shad (so long as they don't start showing up somewhere else from the BBs). Isn't the Sevier River a dead end basin, running its course into the usually dry Sevier Lake bed in the west desert? It appears Yuba would be another prime spot for attempting a forage introduction. Even if the Endangered Species Act doesn't apply, the other legal hurdles are probably insurmountable.