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Re: [fuzzyfisher] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
CoolYou wanna straight answer from ME???

I think we already gots too many carp and way too many FATHEADS. You are really a good straight man, Ron. We oughtta be on TV. Then everybody could turn us off.

Ba Dum Dum.

I gave up trying to put logic to laws a long time ago. But, it is impossible to anticipate every possible situation and exception. The truth is that there are a bunch of "legal" fishies available through aquariums, that can be transported and possessed legally, that constitute a much worse threat to our waters than munchable minnows.

Now, quit hyperventilating about the warm weather and go fishing somewhere.

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Re: [EvilAsh] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Just making people think of the double standards here. I think the dwr overall does good work. I have even worked with them in the dedicated hunter program and plan on doing more volunteer work. But they continue to do bucket biology themselves. Think how much farther one would have to go to get gizzard shad if they had not put them in Williard. Do the shad appear to have Williard. Yep! Do we now the long term effects. No! Through canal systems and ditches, could they gizzard shad make it to Utah Lake and compete with the June Sucker. Probably. With the water diversions (tunnels, ditches, canals etc). around the state I could see a lot of the so called bucket biology happening from just a couple a fishes that decided to go for a swim. Take Strawberry for example: Theres a tunnel that goes thru to the Duechense River via Current Creek. The Duchense in turn dumps into the Green that dumps into the Colorado. If you include all the fish in these drainages. Well lets just say nature finds a way. And as Fuzzy pointed out there are alot of fish at the pet store that are dangerous to utah fisheries, they are legal to transport all over the state. Do I think what slayerace did was right no. He lied to all of us and with the uproar on this site it was plain dumb on his part. He should of taken responsiblity at that time and made sure the minnows were all dead. Would I fish with slayerace in the future. Sure. Thats history now. Just was throwing out a different point of view about this subject.

John

Many men go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. -- Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

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Re: [fuzzyfisher] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
And that would be illegal - and unethical. I've read all of this nonsense from the beginning - and stayed quiet. But really, some of you are not coming off very well. I don't know slayer, except from what I have read here, but I don't think he is a bad guy. I think he made a bad decision, lied about it and got caught. End of story. I think the sad part is that MANY of you are not learning from his mistake.

Blaming the current DWR for introducing non-native species is stupid on several levels:

1. They are trained and educated.
2. There is an entire process involved that starts with research, goes before a board, and then ends with research before any new species is introduced anywhere (I've actually been involved in the process several times).
3. A good majority of non-native species were not introduced originally by the DWR; but by bucket biologists of many flavors decades or more ago.
4. The majority of NON-NATIVE species now introduced are STERILE.
5. The largest emphasis is now on re-introduction of NATIVE species WHEREVER possible.

At no other time in the history of the UDWR has their focus been more on restoring native fish while still providing quality and diversity for the angler.

Slayer got what he deserves. And I'll bet he learned from it. How about the rest of us?

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Re: [fuzzyfisher] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
You have a good point fuzzyfisher and the DWR is the ones that put the fatheads in there. And the DWR are the ones that has put most of the fish that we fish for now like bass waleye strippers and the others and that was a great thing too (but if you don't like the laws change them) not brake them, like he did that is what is wrong in this case. Not that it was bad or good but it was braking the law as it is...


.

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....

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Re: [bassrods] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
and another funny thing i'm finding with all this is..
i don't know about here in utah but in So cal you can buy fathead minnows in the pet stores as feeders..

there is alredy pond carp in the Sevier river drainage..

and the fun way they got there is a privet pond had them in there and the seagules were picking them up and droping them in near by paleceads res.. from there down to gunnson res on down to the sandpitch to the sevier river..
oh yeah the seagules were droping them in 9 mile as well. nice huh?

my point is not if someone did any thing wrong or not moveing live minnows or not..

my point is there are alot worse things the DWR should be worred about than some minnows that in the long run are not going to devastate a intire lake or water system!!

if it's illegal to to have fatheads in your aquarium why then can you have pond carp in your pond?

seems to me that is much more a thret to all our water systems than fathead minnows would ever be..




Ron


artificial intelligence is no mach for my natural stupidity

He who laughs at himself never runs out of things to laugh at.

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Re: [DrewT] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Mistakes were made no doubt, and bucket biology definitely is unethical.

But before you call the rest of us stupid, and give the DWR credit for being such geniuses, you should think about this:

1. They have been "trained and educated" through the process of experimentation in our waters, sometimes with disasterous results.
2. Their research and board decisions are'nt always right.
3. A good majority of non-native speices were introduced to our waters long before there even was a DWR.
4. The majority of non-native speices are NOT sterile. The majority of Hybrid speices are sterile and some of those have been major failures. The Brake trout for instance, a cross between a lake trout and brown trout, released into Porcupine, was later discovered to suffer a life of blindness. Talk about playing God.
But the bulk of Rainbow, Brown, and brook trout (all intorduced), and many, if not most of the warmwater speices do reproduce.
5. There is a large emphasis on re-introducing native speices, but when you say wherever possible, Many of those wherever's are into reservoirs... Which are by definition, UN-NATURAL.

In my never to be humble opinion, the DWR needs to focus on making the best out of what we have... Not wasting millions of dollars trying to bring a false sense of "natural restoration". This is the same kind of thinking that leads people to want to tear down Glenn Canyon Dam.

By the way, the one person I have'nt seen a post from in all of this is Slayer himself. I would be interested to hear what HE thinks about all of this.

Was the DWR officer that showed up at his door executing a warrant, or did Slayer give him permission to search his premises ?

I hope that he will post up and let us all know how this thing went down...


When in doubt, do the right thing... The rest of the time, do whatever you think you can get away with !
(This post was edited by pinksnapper on Dec 2, 2005, 10:08 AM)

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Re: [pinksnapper] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
  
In Reply To:
By the way, the one person I have'nt seen a post from in all of this is Slayer himself. I would be interested to hear what HE thinks about all of this.

Was the DWR officer that showed up at his door executing a warrant, or did Slayer give him permission to search his premises ?

I hope that he will post up and let us all know how this thing went down...

[/quote]
Not that I haven't wondered the same thing but I'll be surprised if he does post up. The guy has been shamed pretty good. Who would want to "voluntarily" stand here and have pot shots taken at them by some on this forum? The price he's paying due to "public" reprisals is a lot worse than the measly $185 fine. I can't say he didn't have it coming but having his name plastered through Northern Utah in the newspaper is like being branded with the "scarlet letter".

I think he has and will continue to pay his dues for his bad decision though others will feel a continued need to belittle the guy. When does a guy finally make the final installment paying his debt to society?

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Re: [michaelbolton] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Cmon just give it up. He knows he screwed up and we don't need to make him the poster wipping boy for all of our frustrations with bucket biology. That wasn't his intention and it should be pretty darn clear by now that it wasn't. Like I said he knows he screwed up and his wallet knows so just forget it and move on. Everyone had a chance to voice their opinions we have established that we dissagree with transplanting of non-native species. I know if you screwed up you would get sick of hearing it from 100s of people especially if you already knew you screwed up. In fact you know just like every other red blooded human being it would just piss you off. I wasn't trying to defend what he did wrong. I was just trying to tell a little more of the other side of things. By the way I am sure that his son would not have dumped them in a canal. Lets just all take a big breath, go fishing and then lie about how big the one that got away wasWink,
jed
(This post was edited by Jedburton on Dec 2, 2005, 10:37 AM)

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Re: [pinksnapper] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
In Reply To:
Mistakes were made no doubt, and bucket biology definitely is unethical.

But before you call the rest of us stupid, and give the DWR credit for being such geniuses, you should think about this:

1. They have been "trained and educated" through the process of experimentation in our waters, sometimes with disasterous results.
2. Their research and board decisions are'nt always right.
3. A good majority of non-native speices were introduced to our waters long before there even was a DWR.
4. The majority of non-native speices are NOT sterile. The majority of Hybrid speices are sterile and some of those have been major failures. The Brake trout for instance, a cross between a lake trout and brown trout, released into Porcupine, was later discovered to suffer a life of blindness. Talk about playing God.
But the bulk of Rainbow, Brown, and brook trout (all intorduced), and many, if not most of the warmwater speices do reproduce.
5. There is a large emphasis on re-introducing native speices, but when you say wherever possible, Many of those wherever's are into reservoirs... Which are by definition, UN-NATURAL.

In my never to be humble opinion, the DWR needs to focus on making the best out of what we have... Not wasting millions of dollars trying to bring a false sense of "natural restoration". This is the same kind of thinking that leads people to want to tear down Glenn Canyon Dam.

By the way, the one person I have'nt seen a post from in all of this is Slayer himself. I would be interested to hear what HE thinks about all of this.

Was the DWR officer that showed up at his door executing a warrant, or did Slayer give him permission to search his premises ?

I hope that he will post up and let us all know how this thing went down...

I don't believe I ever used the word stupid. Feel free to correct me.

1. Well, they were first "trained and educated" for at least six years getting their applicable Master's degree before they were hired to touch a fish. Every single one of them. Kent Summers had to go back and get his after twenty years to keep his job. Then the majority of them spent a few years as researchers before actually getting a job as a biologist.

2. What research is wrong? Based on what criteria? Can you give specifics and do you have research to back that up? I will agree 100% that board decisions are not always in the best interest of you or me.

3. Didn't I say that? I thought I did.

4. I must not have been very clear. The MAJORITY of NEWLY INTRODUCED SPECIES are STERILE. Mostly because they are hybrids. Think of those that have been introduced into waters over the past decade or so that are not natives: tiger musky, wiper, splake, tiger trout. I have been involved in the development of management plans. If a new species is proposed for a water, the first questions asked are about can they control the species (can it move out of it's intended water and will it overpopulate) and disease. Yes, it seemed for a while that FES was a little to fascinated with frankenstein. However, if memory serves me correctly, it was the brownbows and not brake that developed cataracts. The brake eggs did not eye up very well so were very expensive to produce.

5. Correct. However, there is more to it than just being native. Primarily, the state gets federal dollars for native fish. Second, it ensures that the control stays with the state and ESA listing does not come into play.

We have heard what you dislike about the DWR. So what SPECIFICALLY would you like see changed? What waters would you like to see managed differently? What species in those waters? Is this your own selfish (for lack of a better term) desires or what you think would be best for the states angling population as a whole?

Sorry if this seems like a hijacking of the thread. I just feel like we have beat Slayer into the dirt and would like to see some positive dialogue continue.

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Re: [fuzzyfisher] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Thats funny about the pond carp in those lakes. Are they numerous in either of them? if so i wouldnt be supprised to see them wind up in yuba, its just the next stop down the river from 9 mile.




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Re: [fish4fish] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
well this has been going on for about 5 or 6 years now..
so i'm sure they are in yuba allready..
rember 3 years ago when they all but draind 9 mile.. well the DWR got out there can of fix a lake to get rid of them in there.. 9 mile is sepret from the other two lakes so it's alot harder for them to get into there.. but the rest of the drainage has allredy been infested with them..
the drout has been keeping them in check for the last while.. not letting them get down stream but this year there was alot of water going down the sanpitch river..




Ron


artificial intelligence is no mach for my natural stupidity

He who laughs at himself never runs out of things to laugh at.

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Re: [TubeDude] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Hi everyone,

After reading these posts and seeing everyones opinions I thought it would be time to clear a few things up.

I did indeed give my heavily planted tank to my son Kevin. I had taken my oscars to the pet store and was not aware of any other fish in the aquarium. I knew Kevin intended to make the tank a saltwater tank. He came over while I was at work and when the aquarium was nearly drained he found 7 fish. 6 minnows and an upside down catfish I hadn't seen in 2 years. Kevin took the fish out and put them in my downstairs aquarium that was half full, heavily planted, and the glass was covered with algae. He never mentioned to me that he had found any critters. I had assumed that the oscars had devoured the minnows. I was wrong...

Now a few things about the article in the Trib. It was not mentioned that I had seen his truck outside and still answered the door, or that I invited him into my home without a warrant. Or that I let him look in my downstairs aquarium without a warrant. If I had simply not answered the door, or invited him in, or let him check out my second aquarium. I could have easily flushed the fish if I knew they were there. Believe it or not I didn't know they were there.
It also didn't mention the fact that I invited him into my garage when he was trying to leave, to show him the contents of my freezer. I showed him 20+ bags of frozen fatheads, 20+ bags of Strawberry Res. chubs and r.s. shiners, and 30+ bags of frozen baby white bass. He said it was obvious that there was no harm intended. There wasn't... I didn't lie to anyone... If was hiding something, I didn't have to answer the door... Jed Burton was with me when we caught the minnows, he was there helping me drain the water out of my minnow bucket at Yuba, and when I put the bucket in a cooler on ice. He was there when the park Ranger checked the bucket. My intentions were witnessed...

Am I ashamed? No... A little angry? yes...I didn't do anything wrong intentionally. My only intention was to photograph a minnow, so that a group of "friends" could collectively identify it. I shouldn't have done "it".
"It" being, assuming that I was only among friends. There are fisherman on this site that try to make this a positive, fisherman friendly site. And there are those that lurk behind the seens picking out morsels of info, and not adding anything positive to our group. They just wait to pounce on someone when the occasion arises.
Since this is a fishing site, I guess I shouldn't be surprised when we run into a few leeches. I hope these leeches have had fun at my expense.
I meet with a judge in his office tomorrow to give him my side of the story. With any luck I may be reimbursed the fine I have already paid. If not, it was money well spent for all of us to see who the contributors are, vs. who the leeches are. Its also been some great reading!

Slayerace

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Glad to see your still around and can take it like a man. Too bad you were the one who had to be made an example out of. Let us know how it goes tomorrow.
Bigcat


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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
You are a class act man, most anybody else would have taken the low road, and dissapeared off the face of the BFT. good to see you still around




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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Way to step up to the plate! Most people would just never show themselves here again, but I think it takes a man to take the heat and show up again.



Got an XBox??? Check out the new BFT XBox Fishing Games board!!!
XBox Fishing Games

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
Slayerace, I believe you and its an unfortunate situation you have been through. I also think you're a stand up individual for coming forward. Yes, it would of been a lot easier and painless to be "invisible" for a while.

This is not over yet. Be prepared for the comments yet to come. You are correct that there are those that will not let this die nor will never believe you. I hope you are prepared for that.

But most of all, welcome back.

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
CoolWell done. Now, can we go fishing? I'm thinking the harbors on Utah Lake are about ready to kick out some fishies. I heard tell...

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
hey Slayerace any one that hunts minnows for bait knows that getting them to the freezer fast is best.. and yes i have used fatheads to feed my fish with as well..

and from seeing what you had in your freezer your good at catching some bait.. hope that some time we can get together and traid srecret's.. and i'll show you the ues of dry ice so you wont have to worry about them being alive by the time you get home.. lol




Ron


artificial intelligence is no mach for my natural stupidity

He who laughs at himself never runs out of things to laugh at.

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
I have to hand it to ya S/R. Kudo's!!
No one is perfect no matter how much they try and convince others their are. These same folk had choose to try and get their kicks by belittling you also screw up in life, I have to wonder if they, like you, have the brass to air their mistakes for all the world to see.
S/R feel welcome to wander over and say hello and share the cap or open water with this old kid anytime.

We'll,,,

GitR Dun!

Don,, the old IceSkrat.

Never assume a great day fishing is a great day catching...

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Re: [slayerace] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
yeah...I have to hand it to you and the rest of those on this site who still don't think you didn't do anything wrong...you broke the freaking law. And, worse yet, you don't think you did anything wrong! I am just glad your son Kevin didn't dump them somewhere they could do some real harm. This is unbelievable...you not only had minnows in your aquarium but you also had a catfish...it is obvious that you have also broke the law before. My bet is that you will do it again. Your only intention was to photograph a LIVE minnow which you purposely kept alive in an aquarium that you also had other LIVE minnows living in. You can call me a leech all you want, but the truth is you are a threat to our fisheries and I despise your actions. You are obviously one of those people who believe that rules and laws do not apply to you.
The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us, and from motives of policy are silent when we should speak, the divine floods of light and life no longer flow into our souls.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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Re: [wormandbobber] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
W&B - I think he got his upside down catfish from a pet store.

Props to slayer for not disappearing. However, I too take exception to the "I did nothing wrong" statement. Those fish did not open up a ziplock bag, then the freezer, flop across the floor, and hop into an aquarium by themselves.

I don't believe that your intent was to "plant" them anywhere other than your aquarium; but what you did was illegal and thus wrong.

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Re: [wormandbobber] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
 This is unbelievable...you not only had minnows in your aquarium but you also had a catfish...





Give it a rest wormandbobber.

It was an upside down catfish, Perfectly legal. They sell them at almost every pet store in the state.

Fishrmn

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Re: [wormandbobber] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
An upside down catfish is an aquarimum fish likely to be found at most any petstore




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Re: [Jedburton] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
In Reply To:
Like I said he knows he screwed up and his wallet knows so just forget it and move on.


That's exactly the mentality that we, as fishermen, should NOT take. We should remember this situation. We NEED to remember this, and learn from it. Intentions are not what the situation was about. Potential is a much bigger danger.

Someone needed to be made an example of. It's extremely nice to now the the UDWR is not sitting back and allowing these situations to happen. It's nice to know that they are taking an aggressive attitude towards the illegal transportation of live fish.

I certainly hope that this sitation NEVER happens again. But, are any of us so naive to think that it won't? I am not. But, I can at least rest assured that the UDWR is out there trying to protect a sport and a resource that I love dearly.

For clarification: Intentions are why he wasn't given a much harsher felony citation. Laws are not enforced based on intentions alone. At some point, we need to be held responsible for our actions.



I couldn't help it. It just popped in there.
Dr. Raymond Stantz


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Re: [PBH] Bucket Biologists Article In reply to
don't mistake my intentions and that is taking the quote out of context. Of course we shouldn't forget what happened as far as the act goes. Duh, learn from it, but berating and belittleing slayerace over it isnt going to get anything done. When I said forget it, I meant leave him alone about it. He knows and that is as far as that should go. Just like I said in a previous post if you screwed up on anything and knew it, someone continually nagging you about it just makes you mad and doesn't accomplish anything. You know as well as I do everyone including you, makes mistakes. We have all learned the lesson on this one. Give the people on this board a lot more credit than it appears you do. They know the law and noone condones breaking it. The only argument anyone on here has had, is that we don't have to belittle someone to get our point across. We can leave them as just that, very good points and not personal insults,
jed

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