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Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop?

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Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop?
Which knot is better for bugs, ...er for me?
That has been bugging me so instead of doing more constructive things I need to be doing I have been messing with these k nots. Knot that it matters in the scheme of life but instead in my obsessive behavior.

Which one matters knot the result is. Except in little bits of tippet or time my relative knot testing shows this so.

dB
disinfect your wading equipment. wash boat. disinfect livewells / sumps, wash ur dog

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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
CoolI would only use a loop knot on a wet fly. Don't need the actions that it provides on a dry. Mark Sosin claims that the mono loop is almost 100%. I have yet to try the mono loop only recently learning how to tie it. Can almost tie it in the dark. So which one proved to be your go with loop S_F ?




Dryrod
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Re: [Dryrod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
I have used the Nonslip Mono Loop for several years now but have never fished with the Surgeon's Loop.

FG has talked about the Surgeons Loop several times. When she recently discussed how to keep the loop small it got me to try some experimenting to see how I liked tying the knot.

In doing some tug of war testing I discovered that both knots are stronger than the tippet material. That is to say that the tippet material broke in the middle not in the knot or near the knot. I have tried it with 3x mono and 5x Fluorcarbon.

But I need to say that all of my tippet material is at least a year old so there is a chance that the material has degraded. But then again I have used two different tippet sizes and materials so there is a very good likelyhood that new tippet material would produce the same results.

So here is a challenge for you. Assuming that you have some new tippet material can you do some relative knot tests and see if you get similar results.

By the way I have added my results to my page on testing knots. Also, note that you need 5 turns for the nonslip mono loop.

dB
disinfect your wading equipment. wash boat. disinfect livewells / sumps, wash ur dog
(This post was edited by Scruffy_Fly on Jun 7, 2008, 2:26 PM)

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Re: [Dryrod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
I sometimes use a loop knot for dry flies but I can not say that I have been able to determine that it makes a big difference.

When I use a large bushy dry fly as an indicator for a much smaller fly that I can not see on the water I will generally use a loop knot on the small dry fly.

dB
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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
CoolWell I'll answer a question with a question before I can proceed with any tests. What is the shelf life of tippet material? The reason why I ask is that I have so many different sizes that I seldom need to buy any. So from here I will go a Googling to see if any of the manufacturers have any recommendations.




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Re: [Dry rod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
CoolI checked numerous web sites including those of manufactures and what I found was "a long shelf life or a short shelf life". Nothing quantitative. So I did the next best thing and sent an e-mail to Orvis re this subject. Perhaps FGD might have the answer since apparently she has worked in one of their retail outlets.




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Re: [Dryrod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
I have read on various threads and heard from a number of fly shop personnel, etc that it is 1 year. But I have never put much stock in it. It always seemed to be a marketing ploy to me.

UV light is generally known to degrade its strength.

I have experienced tippet that breaks easily. It has happened to me three times. Two times it was tippet I had around for a while and was a mostly empty spool.
One time it was tippet I had bought off the discount rack at a fly shop and had laying around for another year.

dB
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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
CoolWell if I hear anything positive from Orvis I just may have to start dating my tippet material. I know that long exposure to sunlight can have a negative effect on mono. But you know if someone can tell us that after one year a 3X might deteriate to the equivalent of a 5X or something of that nature then I can live with that prospect. A black marker can do wonders.Wink




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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
Coolquote:[So here is a challenge for you. Assuming that you have some new tippet material can you do some relative knot tests and see if you get similar results.]
Haven't forgotten about your challenge S_F so to speak. Been trying a little different approach and that is to tie a different knot at each end and drop a weight from a given height and observe the results. Well 3X tippet couldn't stand the shock of a 1 lb weight being from about 6". So I went to 12 lb test mono. Still had the same effect. So in between the the lower knot which was tied to a ring I attached a real small bungee cord to absorb some of the initial shock. Well so far the double improved clinch knot held out over a Davy knot. Now I will have to reverse the knots and do several more tests. Eventuall I will get to the surgeon's and mono loop.




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Re: [Dryrod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
I don't think I have ever used 12 lb test for fly fishing. I have some 0x leaders I was going to use for bass fishing but have never done that. Not sure what the lb rating is on it.

I have heard of people using snubbers while fishing but you adaption of a snubber for testing does sound intreging.

Now your methods seem like some thing my brother would accuse me of doing and over thinking the problem.

My method has been to stretch and relax the knots and mono several times using the key rings. Then on a subsequent time when I have the mono under tension I quickly pull my hands apart. I figure that is about as good as I am going to be able to simulate playing a fish then it suddenly having a burst of energy.

dB
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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
CoolPerhaps you missed my point. Since my tippet material was too light [3X] to test the dropping of a one pound weight I resorted to using 12 lb mono. If we are evaluating the strengths of different knots does it matter what value the line is?




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(This post was edited by Dryrod on Jun 11, 2008, 9:14 PM)

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Re: [Dryrod] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
DR wrote--- resorted to using 12 lb mono. If we are evaluating the strengths of different knots does it matter what value the line is?
----------------
I think it does with some knots. That is one reason I tend to use tippets and hooks typical for what I use.

Here is an article that talks about a whole lot about relative knot strength testing. He touches lightly on the fact that some knots work better on heavier tackle than others.

http://www.midcurrent.com/...heck_lastlink_1.aspx

dB
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Re: [Scruffy_Fly] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
The Surgeon's End Loop gets very large when tied in heavy line, the Rapala and Nonslip Mono Loop also get quite cumbersome in heavy line. The Perfection End Loop, which can be tied into an extremely small loop can be tied in very heavy line. This doesn't really apply to flyfishing tippet but the Mexican fishermen use a version of the Perfection Loop to tie hooks and lures in line up to 100 pound test. It is sometimes referred to as the Mexican Speed Knot or Baja Knot but is really just a Perfection Loop tied with the lure in the loop as it is tied. You can see it at http://www.netknots.com[/url] It is call the Baja Knot in the Fishing Knot section. It's one of the few fishing knots that can be tied in such heavy line. -slojes

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Re: [SLOJES] Nonslip Mono Loop or Surgeon's Loop? In reply to
An acqantince of mine uses the perfection loop at the hook but I have never tried it except at the butt end of the leader. He fly fishes for carp a lot so it must be good enough.

Whenever I get around to getting new leaders I always have to look at that website you listed or another one to remember how to do the knot. I generally get several leaders at once and use the perfection loop on the butt ends so that they are ready to go on the stream.

dB
disinfect your wading equipment. wash boat. disinfect livewells / sumps, wash ur dog
(This post was edited by Scruffy_Fly on Jul 7, 2008, 6:55 AM)