Fishing

This subject comes up every year. And I’m always amazed that it’s the same questions every year. I think what some people don’t realize is that not all waters within the state are being managed by the state. A few that are would include Willard, East Canyon, Rockport, and Jordanelle. A few that are not would include Pineview, Strawberry/Soldier Creek, Newton, and Mantua. The state managed properties are, for the most part, being run by state employees and the fees collected go into the states general fund and help cover the salaries of employees, maintenance of facilities, upgrades (like adding water/electric hookups to some sites at Hyrum State Park), etc.

Pineview and Strawberry/Soldier Creek are managed by the U.S. Forest Service (USFS). And as you know, or should know, all Federal agencies have been dealing with funding cutbacks and reductions in employees for at least the last 2 decades. In order for them to survive and function in this environment, many agencies (like the USFS) have turned to ‘contracting out’ to run their facilities. In the case of Pineview and Strawberry/Soldier Creek, American Land & Leisure (AL&L) got the contract. They are a private company that is in business to make money. So they have a fee schedule (probably with contractual restrictions imposed by the Federal contract) that is designed to cover their operating expenses (including paying a fee to USFS to have the contract) and make a profit. AL&L is NOT under contract to provide improvements to the facilities they manage for the USFS. That responsibility still belongs to the USFS.

So when you go to one of these facilities and get all ticked off at the deplorable condition of the launch facilities, why are you taking it out on the AL&L employee running it? He or she has absolutely zero control or influence over the situation. They’re just there trying to do a thankless job and earn a few extra bucks to make their retirement years a little less financially stressful.

Bottom line here is that nothing is free anymore. We are going to have to pay for our recreation one way or the other. Utah has their facilities and fee schedule, the USFS has theirs and a fee schedule, and there are even some private ones out there with another fee schedule (like Echo). And Echo is charging $15 a day to use their launch. None of these agencies honor other agency passes. That’s why the State Parks Pass isn’t acceptable at USFS facilities and vice versa. Accept it. Deal with it. If you want to play, you’re going to have to pay.

And don’t forget, there are actually some reservoirs out there that DON’T have a fee like Causey, Lost Creek, Newton, Birch Creek, and Woodruff. But some of them don’t have a boat launch.



Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 70 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss

dubob is correct. The thing that chaps me is that I purchase a Golden Eagle Pass for Powell and the Gorge. It is supposed to get you into all Federal recreation areas, EXCEPT two, Strawberry/Soldier Creek and Pineview. I can go to any National Forest Campground, any National Park, Recreation area, camp, fish, boat, EXCEPT Pineview and Strawberry !!! That is screwy !!!

Well said Bob!


Live like you were dieing!
Today is a gift, Tomorrow a dream!
Rocky Mountain Tackle/ Radical Glow mountain West Factory Rep

<>< <><
<>< <><
<>< <><

I also usually buy the Golden Eagle pass for federal lands. It is good only for entrance fees-- " The Golden Eagle Passport does NOT cover or reduce use fees, such as fees for camping, swimming, parking, boat launching, or cave tours. It is valid for entrance fees only." However the problem is the private companies and Salt Lake City ( For the national forest in Millcreek) among others decide to ignore that it's valid for entry to Federal Lands when they are manning a booth. Pretty sure it's not legal. On the website you can purchase it certainly doesn't list Federal Lands it isn't valid. It sucks to have to pay 3 times ( taxes, pass for Federal Land entry and entry fee)to get into Federal lands in these cases. My understanding is even charging for an entry fee once for just parking or using undeveloped areas at Federal lands is in violation of current Federal laws--" The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees
“olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking
along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without
using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).
This isn't to say they can't charge for things like camping and launching but it appears many groups are imposing fees illegally. I know this is in the courts now. I'm not against paying for use of Federal Lands but do consider 3 times for one use excessive. Hopefully some rational policy can be developed to cover the cost but I'm not hopeful as it would have to involve politicians.
Men think that they own the water they use. You might as well claim [the] air.... to say that you own the water.
- Mr Murdock
The Utah Constitution recognized and confirms the public's ownership of Utah Waters.
-Judge Derek P. Pullan, Fourth District Court, 21 Day of May 2012

The Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (“REA”)
prohibits the United States Forest Service from charging fees
“olely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking
along roads or trailsides,” for “hiking through . . . without
using the facilities and services,” and “[f]or camping at undeveloped sites . . . .” 16 U.S.C. § 6802(d)(1)(A), (D) & (E).

Not sure the line is going through the end of my post so I'm trying again on part of it.

In Reply To:

Men think that they own the water they use. You might as well claim [the] air.... to say that you own the water.
- Mr Murdock
The Utah Constitution recognized and confirms the public's ownership of Utah Waters.
-Judge Derek P. Pullan, Fourth District Court, 21 Day of May 2012

I have never been charged extra for a launch fee when using the Golden Eagle Pass. At Powell, that may be due to the fact that you purchase a yearly boat sticker also. Never had a launch fee at the Gorge though !! Years ago I asked the head ranger at Strawberry what the deal was and he was unable to give me an answer, other than contact the Main Office in Heber. Several calls and letters to the Heber Office were never answered, so my guess is that they don't want to talk to anyone about it. Don't fish Pineview much any more, so I don't worry about that. Echo is private as it Mantua and Hyrum, so they have their own fees. Lindon and AF on Utah Lake are also private, so they charge their own fees vs. the State Park.

I suspect they know it isn't technically legal so just give you the run around. I've encountered the same thing the one time I asked and tried to get an answer. Looks like Big Brother didn't like me posting the Federal law and tried to cross it out on both attempts.
Men think that they own the water they use. You might as well claim [the] air.... to say that you own the water.
- Mr Murdock
The Utah Constitution recognized and confirms the public's ownership of Utah Waters.
-Judge Derek P. Pullan, Fourth District Court, 21 Day of May 2012

I think people forget Boating is a luxury & with all luxuries you got to pay the fees.

The Gorge doesnt really have launch fees (on the WY side)...not sure about UT....at Buckboard they charge 15 bucks for parking your truck and trailer. The rest of the Gorge has a $5 use fee which applies whether ur bank fishing, camping, boating, etc. This is basically an honor system, so I think a lot of people dont pay this fee. I'm not sure of the penalty, but we pay it whenever we go there. Its cheaper than most launch fees.

Therapist wrote:

I can go toany National Forest Campground, any National Park, Recreation area, camp, fish,boat, EXCEPT Pineview and Strawberry !!! That is screwy !!!

Well, it is (screwy) and it isn’t. You have to understand how the Federal Government works (good luck with that). I’ve talked on the phone with both AL&L and a couple of USFS Ranger Districts and I’m still somewhat confused. The Federal Government has 3 basic passes available and they are called:

1. Interagency Annual Pass ($80.00) – It replaces the Golden Eagle Passport. This pass covers Standard Amenity Fees like entrance fees to the National Parks and National Wildlife Refuges and day-use fees charged at National Forests and Bureau of Land Management sites and areas. The pass is good for one year from the month of purchase.
2. Interagency Senior Pass ($10.00) – It replaces the Golden Age Passport. It covers Standard Amenity Fees. The new Senior Pass is a lifetime pass available to citizens and permanent residents who are 62 years of age and older. Proof of Age is required. This pass must be applied for in-person at any Forest Service office.
3. Lifetime Access Pass (Free) – It replaces the Golden Access Passport. It covers Standard Amenity Fees. The new Access Pass is a lifetime pass available free-of-charge to persons who are permanently disabled.This pass must be applied for in-person at any Forest Service office.

Although it says the pass will cover day-use fees at National Forests and Bureau of Land Management sites and areas, it ain’t necessarily so.


The Annual Pass does not cover Expanded Amenity fees such as camping, boat launching, parking, special tours, special permits or ferries. Also, some facilities and activities on Federal recreation lands are managed by private concessionaires. The concessionaires charge for their services as any private company does and the Pass is not valid for their services. The Annual Pass does not cover discounts on any Expanded Amenity or Concessionaire (Concessioner) Fees such as: camping, RV hook-ups, boat launching, backcountry permits, parking at Mount Rushmore, guided cave tours at Wind Cave National Park, or parking at some historic monuments or homes.


At many sites the Senior Pass and the Access Pass provide the pass owner a discount on Expanded Amenity Fees (such as camping, swimming, boat launching, and guided tours). The pass program is managed by five Federal agencies that operate under different regulations and have different fees. Therefore, the discount program for the Senior Pass and the Access Pass is not handled in the same way on all Federal recreation lands. In general discounts are honored as follows:

1. Individual Campsites: The discount only applies to the fee for the campsite physically occupied by the pass owner, not to any additional campsite(s) occupied by members of the pass owner's party.
2. Campsites with Utility Hookups: If utility fees are charged separately, there is no discount. The discount may apply if the utility fee is combined (seamless) with the campsitef ee.
3. Group Campsites and Facilities: (including, but not limited to, group facilities, picnic areas or pavilions): There is no discount for group campsites and other group facilities that charge a flat fee. If the group campsite has a per person fee rate, only the pass owner receives a discount; others using the site pay the full fee.
4. Guided Tours: The pass offers discounts on some guided tours. Only the pass owner receives a discount if one is offered.
5. Transportation Systems: (Inquire Locally)
6. Concessionaire Fees: (Inquire Locally)
7. Special Use Permit Fees: (Inquire Locally)

It’s no wonder why there is so much confusion on the part of John Q Public about where and for what his pass is honored and where it is not. Don’t forget, there are 5 Federal agencies using this pass and they all have their own set of regulations governing its use.



Are you still confused? Welcome aboard; it’s nice to know I’m not alone.





Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 70 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss

Removed because I felt like it

In thought what does this have to do with fishing should be moved to a rant and rave or general BS area sheesh
.
.
If your practicing CNR keep your freaking hands out of the gills..

If you feel that strongly about it don't pay the fee tell the CO that its your right to use the facilities cause your taxes paid for it. Better yet tell the CO your tax dollars are paying for his salary .... baaah baaah

Removed because it was nothing but noise

PM Sent

Yep then I guess Im a sheep for being a law abiding citizen but other than crying on a fishing board what are you doing to change the laws ? Baaah Baaah...

There always someone wanting something for free call it what you want but don't boat if your not willing to pay the fee. ( The way I see it its 1 less boat on the water )

Dont get me wrong I hate paying for somethings that should be free but the fact of the matter is those dollars are recycled back into the park you enjoy fishing and boating.

What do you think the dwr employees are getting filthy rich from boat fee's if you knew or care about the waters you boat you know the Parks Budget was ripped in half and if up to the Gov we would be strip mining them all and reallocating the water to the strip mines.

Removed due to noise
.
.
If your practicing CNR keep your freaking hands out of the gills..

Still doesnt answer my question any one can come on the board and call people sheep and cry about the fees but what are you doing to change the laws ? Or are you sitting back paying the fee waiting other to change the law ? Sounds like a sheep to me ... Baaahh Baaah

Relax guys. I just payed a fee Monday along Mirror Lake that is being imposed on me illegally. Same as I don't fish public owned waterways flowing through private land since Utah enacted an unconstitutional law. We don't all have time to go to trial or sue over every illegal action of some branch of our Government. I'll save that for bigger issues. I can think of dozens of illegal actions Utah is doing and otherwise I'd spend my life in court. .And I know of SLC and the feds of enforcing things that aren't legal either. I'll wait for the courts to correct these injustices even if it takes time.
Here's a link to the law enacted in 2004 regarding this issue http://www.blm.gov/..._/rea_info_page.html
If you don't want to read the whole thing here's a summary of which fees aren't allowed on all Federal Lands: The Act prohibits certain fees for:
General access to national forests and grasslands and Bureau of Land Management areas;
Horseback riding, walking through, driving through, or boating through areas where no facilities or services are used;
Access to overlooks or scenic pullouts;
Undesignated parking areas where no facilities are provided for
Picnicking along roads or trails; and
In addition individuals under 16 will not be charged an entrance or standard amenity fee.
Men think that they own the water they use. You might as well claim [the] air.... to say that you own the water.
- Mr Murdock
The Utah Constitution recognized and confirms the public's ownership of Utah Waters.
-Judge Derek P. Pullan, Fourth District Court, 21 Day of May 2012

Removed for noise
.
.
If your practicing CNR keep your freaking hands out of the gills..

Says who? Specifically, where is it written that you have that right? Is it in the US Constitution? Nah! The Constitution is a plan that provides the rules for our government.

Is it in the Bill of Rights? The Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution with ten amendments that contained a list of individual rights and liberties which the government cannot take away from its citizens. Seventeen more amendments have been added since then. I've read all 27 of them and I'm pretty sure there isn't one of them that say you have the right to access Federal property just because you pay taxes.

But then, I'm not a Constitutional Scholar. So, please, help me out here. Which of the 27 Amendments to the US Constitution actually gives you the right to access Federal property because you pay taxes? Enquiring minds want to know.




Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 70 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss

Water rights are generally established pursuant to State law, but there are exceptions, most notably, the concept of federal reserved water rights. Reserved water rights are rights that are established when the federal government reserves land for a specific federal purpose. Courts have held that there is an implied water right to satisfy the primary purposes of the reservation. An examples of reservations include Indian reservations, national wildlife refuges, federal forests and military base
I understand that but what I will never understand is lands and waters designated for public usage were extra fees are collected when they are already funded by tax dollars.
Its double taxation its out right theft..
.
.
If your practicing CNR keep your freaking hands out of the gills..

I think you have to look at the historical precedent of these rights at the time our country was founded. Then giving the 9 and 10th Amendments and the outcome of court cases upholding and interpreting these rights. Here's a recent court finding; http://www.hoodrivernews.com/...local-results-are-in . This information along with the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act ( I already linked to ) makes it pretty clear this is a right of all Americans. Maybe a legal expert could put it together a bit better than I did. Remember rights not eluded to in the Constitution shall remain with the people and the state. The Feds can't deny these rights according to our Bill of Rights/Constitutional Amendments.
Men think that they own the water they use. You might as well claim [the] air.... to say that you own the water.
- Mr Murdock
The Utah Constitution recognized and confirms the public's ownership of Utah Waters.
-Judge Derek P. Pullan, Fourth District Court, 21 Day of May 2012

I am going to go wrench on my boat...

Right is implied unless stated other wise by federal or state mandates..

But any state or federal water ways that are deemed open to the public and funded by state and federal tax dollars should be free to the public and its citizenry.

Any entity at the private or state/federal levels are funded fully for the year and for them to tax its usage is theft and should be treated as such... Any dollars collected due to this extra taxation should be taken away from said entity from the next years funding period...
.
.
If your practicing CNR keep your freaking hands out of the gills..

Warchild wrote:

I understand that but what I will never understand is lands and waters designated for public usage were extra fees are collected when they are already funded by tax dollars. Its double taxation its out right theft. Dont get all hurt when a man says BS to your opinion even if written in RED. I stand that the American Citizen has been slowly lost there freedom and rights and that the taxation and fees imposed on all of us is unjust at a federal, state and city level.. If you choose to just take it then feel free to. Just dont get your panties in an uproar over it.. When someone says its BS to keep paying fees and such that we already paid for.

Your posts are an excellent example of the thread the other day from TubeDude about the spelling/grammar skills of the some of the posters. Your posts are very difficult to follow. You’re going to have to do a lot better than you have so far to ‘hurt’ me.

Now let me see if I’ve got this right. You’re calling BS because I made a simple request that you show me ‘where is it written that you have that right’ of access to a federally managed recreational property. And your answer was gibberish about reserved water rights. And you’re calling BS on me? Nice try; no cigar.

When you decide to have a meaningful discussion, please let me know.


Bob Hicks, from Utah
I'm 70 years young and going as hard as I can for as long as I can.
“Free men don't ask permission to bear arms.” - Glen Aldrich
“Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don’t mind.” - Dr. Seuss

I'm confused by your post. when you say BB charges 15 dollars for parking.Are you talking about the user fee tax,that is set by the USFS? In 30 yrs of fishing the gorge,I have never been charged for parking. I do pay 35 dollars a year for the annual user tax,that is sponsored by the USFS.










____________________________________________________

"If you take away the right to fail, you remove the ability to succeed."