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White bass at Deer Creek
Ok so we all remember last may when a white bass was caught in the provo above DC. It created quite a stir for a while but I have not heard anything since.

I was just curious if any one else has seen or heard of any one else finding other white bass in DC. Just wondering if the problem has gotten bigger since that one was caught. Thanks.

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Re: [BigCountryUT] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
CoolThere have been several caught...up to 16". Ditto for crappies and black bullheads. Looks like we have spawning populations of several new "introductions"...thanks to the bucket bozos.

The law says that we keep and kill all fish of a species not legally planted by DWR. Good law but probably not going to do much to stem the tide if those prolific species already have a toehold.

It will be interesting to see if the whities mount any kind of a spawning run up the Provo this spring. It will be in late May or June if it happens...after the walleyes do their thing. And the crappies will probably spawn then too, but around the brush on the flats at the north end of the lake or up in the back of Walsburg. If we get a few folks targeting them that will give us a better idea of their numbers and will also help remove a few spawners.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Well even though I don't like these species there it now gives me a good reason to go there in May. I have only fished DC a couple of times but it has been a long time.

Albinotrout
Fishing and trains...what else is there? BASEBALL.......

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Re: [albinotrout] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
I'm not familiar with DC. Are the crappie and bullheads the work of bucket biologists as well?

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Re: [chickendude1234] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Most likely. Not sure when they were introduced though.

Albinotrout
Fishing and trains...what else is there? BASEBALL.......

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Tubedude I think that you are right about the fisherman not being able to control the population. I was reading an article by the DWR on the problem and it said that a female white bass can lay up to 500,000 eggs per year vs. just a couple thousand for a trout so it seems like a couple years of spawnig whities could really take over the place.

I will be out there this spring trying to take a out a few of them.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
If the white bass take hold, and the odds are that they will, It may give folks a real time example of over crowding and stunting. The first generation or two of white bass have apparently already grown to 16 inches. That's bigger than most, if not all of the white bass in Utah Lake. But there were enough "groceries" available to sustain that kind of growth. As their numbers increase, the "groceries" will have to be shared with tens of thousands of other whiteys. They may soon find it hard to find enough food to grow very large. If the conditions are a little less favorable for spawning and recruitment of fry, or some other influence can keep their numbers low, the survivors could show some impressive size.

Either way, I wish there was a way to reverse the situation. They don't belong there, and they shouldn't be there.


Fishrmn

"I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits."
— Albert Einstein

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Re: [BigCountryUT] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
CoolAs with some of the other illegal introductions, they can be a dual-edged sword. On one hand, they provide another species for anglers that might not be lucky at catching one of the other species already in the lake...like walleyes. On the other hand, they are competing for the available food supply in the lake.

I have fished Deer Creek going back to the 1960's and have seen it "evolve" through several stages. In the early days it was rainbows, browns and perch as the primary species. But, there were also largemouths. They got to be over 5# and there were plenty of 3 and 4# fish for those who targeted them and knew how to fish for them.

In the early days, Deer Creek was overrun with perch...and crawdads. Baby perch were a major food source for all predators and crawdads fed the bass nicely...and some big rainbows too. In those days perch were considered trash fish and the troutaholics tossed them up on the bank.

Then...late 70's to early 80's "someone" dumped in some walleyes. Not many caught before the mid 80's but then they took off and became a big factor in the food chain.

However, the real change in the ecology of Deer Creek came from the mid 80's planting of smallmouth...by DWR. They exploded and began to vacuum up all the food resources. They quickly began to outcompete the largemouth and greatly reduced the population of perch. Hordes of young smallies mopped up schools of newly hatched perch fry before they could get past the first year. Fewer and fewer perch were living long enough to spawn...and during low water years there was no spawning at all because there was no flooded vegetation for spawning or protective nurseries. Perch fishing went from fantastic to almost nonexistent within a few years of the smallies' takeover.

The smallies also took the crawdad population from gazillions to scarce. You used to see the bottom crawling with bugs, near any rocky structure. Today you can't even get enough in a few traps to have a crawdad feed for one person.

Okay...that's a lot of words to set up the question I have about the "new" species chart in Deer Creek. What are the newcomers going to eat and where is it going to come from?...and as they establish larger populations, what will it do to the "approved" species?

I am cautiously optimistic that the white bass and the crappies may contribute as much as they take...in terms of food. In lakes where they already exist, they spawn prolifically and their young remain small enough...long enough...that the other fish in the lake take advantage of them as a food source.

Example 1: The crappies in East Canyon were largely unknown until the young-of-the-year started showing up by the hundreds in the stomachs of some of the larger trout caught through the ice. All predators in Deer Creek will eat baby crappies...even the adult crappies. I doubt they will have a population explosion. More likely they will establish a minor biomass and will be an "occasional" catch. But, they will get good sized. I caught a 15 incher in there last year...fat and healthy.

Example 2: If the white bass do establish a good spawning population they will also both add to the predation on baby perch and contribute their own young to perch and other species. However, they grow a lot faster than baby perch and will be much larger at the end of the first year. But, they will be good food for the big walleyes and bass in the lake...maybe helping them to grow even larger.

The big unknown is whether or not DC is fertile enough to support that many young of that many species. Virtually all fish spawned in the lake or the tributaries require vast quantities of zooplankton to progress beyond the sac fry stage...and past the fry to fingerling stage. DC has been healthy over the years, but the nutrient levels dropped somewhat after the completion of Jordanelle Dam. The water now coming into DC does not come from a huge upstream drainage and does not have nearly the nutrients it used to. Still, most of the trout caught from DC have large quantities of invertebrates in their innards...like daphnia. If that situation does not go downhill it could be great.

Time will tell. Time is a tattletail.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Makes you wonder what DC and some other lakes in Utah would be like without smallies. They sure do take over the rocks. In just about every lake there is with smallies, the crayfish population takes a dive. Then the smallies stunt. Go to a lake with smallies at night with a real powerful light, look in the rocks... they are full of baby bass. (3-6"). (Good thing walleyes and cats and other predators enjoy snacking on bass)

Speaking of bass, I've caught a few largies out of Deer Creek - surprised me.

We used to fish the island with frozen baby crayfish on jig heads for perch. You wanna talk about some nice perch, 5-8 years ago the average size perch we caught was amazing. Haven't seen perch like that since then.

I've also caught some decent walleyes (5-6lbs) trolling worm harnesses on the flats right off the island.

The white bass and crappie must be really recent additions. They might have been around when I used to fish DC but not in any kind of #'s.

---

I almost hate to bring it up - and I'll make an effort not to after this... but I'm still just waiting for a thread on the Utah board that says "Burbot found in _____". I swear I thought Wyoming had lots of bucket bio's, but Utah is even worse from the sounds of it.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
I completely overlooked the fact that a lot of the baby whities could serve as forage.

Also, I have to admit, the idea of catching some 16" white bass is kind of exciting.

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Re: [WyomingMoose] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
May the scales of a 1000 burbot infect your shorts !!! Don't give the bozo's any ideas !! They usually don't need anyone to plant ideas in their infertile brains though. Yes the movement of species in Utah is an interesting phenom. ( yes, I know that burbot do not have scales )

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Re: [Fishrmn] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
"Either way, I wish there was a way to reverse the situation. They don't belong there, and they shouldn't be there."

CoolWe are in agreement on that one. BAD MOVE. It is possible that there can be a balance struck and that the whities will give more than they get. But the odds are that in time they will have multiple negative outcomes.

As you observe, the first wave has found good foraging and the fish have put on good growth. But, as with Utah Lake, they quickly become small and stunted when they are overpopulated and underfed.

I don't think I can blame the skin divers for this one. Maybe the mud cats. Now if we could only get hold of some sterile northern pike...and some summertime snakeheads.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
We need a species that feeds on Jet Skis, Waverunners and water skiers.CoolCool One that tastes good, doesn't over populate, and while we're at it, looks purdy on the wall.

It might look like the whites were a good move when the first couple of generations get some size and shoulders. They'll be fun and popular. But I'm guessing 7 or 8 years down the road they'll be a dime a thousand, and not much bigger than a dime. Maybe a silver dollar.MadCrazy


Fishrmn

"I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits."
— Albert Einstein

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Re: [WyomingMoose] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
"The white bass and crappie must be really recent additions. They might have been around when I used to fish DC but not in any kind of #'s."

Crappie have been in there for a while. I got into a few of them fishing for walleye about 12 years ago. Took my worm harness in about 4 feet of water. Can't remember how many total but got 2-3 that day and have got some here and there since then.



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Re: [Fishrmn] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
CoolI have fished white bass ("sandies") is several lakes around the country. I am amazed that they do as well as they do in Utah Lake. Will be even more amazed if they prosper long-term in Deer Creek.

The only waters in which I have seen whities do well consistently...and reach sizes over 12 inches...are lakes in warmer climates that have threadfin shad as a forage species.

In our waters they have cold winters and short growing seasons. And they only have a very few months a year with fry of their own and other species that are small enough to feed on. However, in Deer Creek they will join the smallies in feeding on baby perch year round. The perchlets usually do not grow beyond about 2" in their first year. Ask the trout that gorge on them all winter under the ice. That ain't gonna help the perch population.

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Why would someone put mudcats in deer creek? They fight like a soggy hot dog and are about as pretty as Anne Ramsey.
If anyone has an idea I would love to hear it.




"If you're looking for someone to jam with, hit me up!"

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
One point that everyone seems to overlook is the possible increase in fingerling trout predation by the white bass.

Deer Creek, like most of our reservoirs, is stocked with fingerling trout. When they can successfully grow to larger and catchable size in the reservoirs it is far less expensive than having to raise the trout in a hatchery to catchable size in order to avoid predation by the likes of smallmouth, larger perch, walleye and now white bass.

I once recall hearing that our Utah hatcheries can produce one pound of catchable trout (about 2.8 fish) or one pound of fingerling trout (about 250-350 fish) for about the same amount of money. You do the math. Utah DWR and Utah's fishermen can't really afford to raise catchable trout for all of our waters simply to avoid predation that shouldn't be a factor if the regulations prohibiting illegal fish introductions were followed by everyone.

Mike


"Fish TopH2O and your skill will surface!"

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
TubeDude wrote:
Now if we could only get hold of some sterile northern pike..

Tiger muskie.....I'm down!

_____________________

"I am not against golf, since I cannot but suspect it keeps armies of the unworthy from discovering trout."


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Re: [TopH2O] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
Nope. No fingerling in Deer Creek for several years now, at least as far back as 2002. The walleye were making short work of the fingerling. The UDWR took a poll and ultimately decided to plant catchable trout to avoid predation by the walleye. It was either that, or quit planting trout all together. They put fewer in, but they don't get eaten by walleye.

Quote:
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1760 10.01" 06/14/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1650 10.01" 06/14/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1650 10.01" 06/14/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1650 10.01" 06/14/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2139 9.8" 06/15/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.8" 06/15/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.8" 06/15/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.8" 06/15/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1848 10.29" 06/16/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1467 10.71" 07/08/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2098 9.98" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2052 9.98" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2052 9.98" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2098 9.98" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2088 9.92" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2135 9.92" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2088 9.92" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2088 9.92" 09/30/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2174 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 905 9.88" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 984 10.58" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1719 10.58" 10/04/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 141 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1638 10.51" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2186 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1755 10.51" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2186 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1755 10.51" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2115 9.88" 10/05/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1728 10.57" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1728 10.57" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1335 10.57" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2006 10.13" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1962 10.13" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1728 10.57" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1962 10.13" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1962 10.13" 10/06/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1800 10.31" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1800 10.31" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1252 10.17" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2130 10.17" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2153 10.17" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 2106 10.17" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1800 10.31" 10/07/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1008 10.04" 10/08/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1120 10.04" 10/08/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1120 10.04" 10/08/2010
DEER CR RES WASATCH RAINBOW 1120 10.04" 10/08/2010
Nothin' less than 9.2 inches for the last several years.


Fishrmn

"I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits."
— Albert Einstein
(This post was edited by Fishrmn on Mar 23, 2011, 7:34 PM)

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Re: [TubeDude] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
A lake in New Mexico that I fished back in the 80's and again in the late 90's had white bass and the small ones went 2lb and we got lots at 5lb the limit on them was 20 fish per person.. Elephant Butte and it had shad and about all the other fish you can have...

I have a picture some place if I find it I will try to post it...

And back in the 80's Charley Thomson (spelling?) and others used seine nets and got crappies, LM bass, Walleye, blue gill and carp and was told that the DWR (then was the Fish and Game) that they (DWR) had put the Walleye and Cappies and Blue gill in the lake but the bass came from a farm pond that the lake filled over when made...
The Walleye came from eggs from Utah Lake Walleye and the Crappies was put in there and in Willard at about the same time..

This is a picture of a picture, I had no other way to post it.
The three lm bass at the top the small one is 2lb+ and the biggest of the three bass is just over three pounds...

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....
image/jpeg DSC05684.JPG (3.12 MB)
(This post was edited by bassrods on Mar 24, 2011, 6:51 AM)

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Re: [bassrods] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
And I'll bet you can't ice fish there. Elephant Butte res. is about the same elevation as Utah Lake. It has a lot of the same types of fish as Utah Lake. And Utah Lake produced 2 to 4 pound white bass when they were first planted. But that ain't gonna happen again.


Fishrmn

"I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits."
— Albert Einstein

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Re: [joshomaru] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
joshomaru wrote:
Why would someone put mudcats in deer creek? They fight like a soggy hot dog and are about as pretty as Anne Ramsey.
If anyone has an idea I would love to hear it.

CoolAnytime you ask a question that begins with the word WHY...and it has to do with people...there is not likely to be a good answer.

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Re: [Fishrmn] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
The ice or snow on or around the lake (witch in this case they both get) is not what we are talking about...

But the food or minnows the other fish have to eat is..
One lake had shad as a food sours the other does not..

Its like the Wipers at Willard they have shad, take the shad away and you have much smaller fish...

How big anything gets is all about the food...

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....

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Re: [bassrods] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
It's TOO COLD for shad at Deer Creek.


Fishrmn

"I tolerate with the utmost latitude the right of others to differ from me in opinion."
— Thomas Jefferson

"The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits."
— Albert Einstein

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Re: [Fishrmn] White bass at Deer Creek In reply to
WRONG WRONG WRONG....

How can they be in Willard if its too cold???????????????
And they (the shad) live in North Dakota as well...And that place is lots colder then all of Utah...

.
Bassrods likes to fish for bass using Mojo lures and Weights, and Parasite Weights.
Practice CPR...Catch, Photograph and Release.
Utah state C&R record 23.5"
Tight lines....

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