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+--- Thread: Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: (/showthread.php?tid=1060945)
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Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - SBennett - 01-16-2019
Throw in your experiences in Premium board under 'Lake Mead' thread by Wolfs4evr.
Was it fun?
Was it worth the effort?
What kind of minnows?
What prey were you after?
Tecniques?
Etc,etc....
Or post experiences here if you dont want to go premium.
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Re: [SBennett] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - TubeDude - 01-16-2019
[#0000FF]I'm witchoo, Shane. I do well with dead minnows, but from past experience...ALL OVER THE COUNTRY...I have done much better with live ones. There may be a few other "hatchery pet" states that restrict the use of live minnows, but I personally don't know of any. In fact, most states allow tackle shops and private vendors to keep tanks full of live minnows and sell them...with unrestricted use.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]'Twern't very long ago that DWR finally allowed limited use of corn...after generations of arguing against corn chummers, lake bottoms covered with corn and trout dying from being clogged up with undigested corn. Now that restrictions have been lifted somewhat, where are those problems?[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]About the only species that seems to be adversely affected by populations of chubs and shiners are the hatchery rainbows. They are wimps. Other more predatory species grow big and fat on them.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Outlawing minnows is like outlawing guns. If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have them. And law-abiding citizens who enjoy legal hunting and target shooting are denied access to their sport. Ditto for minnows. Law-abiding anglers who would benefit by being able to use live minnows must do without...but scofflaws still use them.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Merely outlawing something for the "public good" is no guarantee that there will not be violators. After all, we have strict laws against murder, rape, assault, arson, drugs, drunk driving, etc. How are those laws working out? Check the evening news.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]By the way, I stayed out of the discussion on the premium board for a reason. You can never win against the contrarian brothers from the south. They are afflicted with DWR DNA and always march lockstep along the "never wrong" lines of their heritage.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - RockyRaab - 01-16-2019
I agree, TD. It's not as if Utah lakes were minnow-free and we needed to keep them that way.
Or that other states have unsolvable problems due to "minnow infestations" caused by bait use.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - EyLayo - 01-16-2019
What are the given reasons why Utah doesn't allow live minnows? I'm fairly new to the fishing world, so don't beat me up too bad if it's a dumb question. Why do suppose you can't have shad from Willard while fishing Willard? Is it fear of transporting them elsewhere? I found a dead adult and several minnows frozen in the ice recently. I felt like I was a criminal just digging them out to take pictures so I can match my summer lures. I promptly sunk them and pushed them under the ice a ways with my spud bar.
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Re: [EyLayo] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - RockyRaab - 01-16-2019
The fairly consistent rumor is that DWR doesn't want to cause "minnow bucket biology." Which is to say they don't want lakes that don't have "spiny humped piranha chubs" to be planted with them by anglers.
I'd be content if they'd allow a crawfish-like program that said "Only live minnows trapped or netted from a given lake may be used on that lake. No live minnows may be transported from any lake."
For a start, anyway.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wormandbobber - 01-16-2019
[quote TubeDude][#0000FF]
[#0000FF]About the only species that seems to be adversely affected by populations of chubs and shiners are the hatchery rainbows. They are wimps. Other more predatory species grow big and fat on them.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Outlawing minnows is like outlawing guns. If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have them. And law-abiding citizens who enjoy legal hunting and target shooting are denied access to their sport. Ditto for minnows. Law-abiding anglers who would benefit by being able to use live minnows must do without...but scofflaws still use them.[/quote]
Come on TD, you are a smart guy. Whether you agree with the law or not is beside the point. What is frustrating is reading such naive comments as these above. The truth is that the use of live bait can and does wreak havoc not only on native fish populations (like cutthroat which you failed to even mention) but also other native minnow populations as well. Personally, I have seen some of my favorite trout fisheries (and no, none of these I am thinking of are rainbow trout fisheries) have mountain suckers, goldfish, Utah chubs, and golden shiners virtually destroy them. Additionally, I can think of one fishery, Newcastle, that was so overrun by shiners that even the smallmouth population was being decimated. In fact, the shiners were outcompeting smallmouth so bad that the young of the year smallies were not surviving the winter and not being replaced. Thank goodness wipers were introduced and the shiners wiped out.
Interestingly, the minnow problem across North America is getting worse and states and Canadian provinces are noticing and the trend is not to loosen regulations but to tighten them. In fact, according to this information:
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2010/minnows.htm
"Because bait buckets can transport the deadly VHS virus and other fish diseases and aquatic invasive species (see “Keeping the Invaders at Bay,” page 14), Montana restricts minnow movement. It’s illegal to 1) bring minnows and other live bait into Montana from another state, 2) use or possess live minnows in northwestern Montana and in some lakes and rivers elsewhere in the state, or 3) release live bait into any waters. According to FWP south-central region fisheries manager Ken Frazer, minnow movement in eastern Montana is a growing concern. He says anglers from as far away as Glasgow and Havre drive to the Yellowstone River and adjacent irrigation canals to collect minnows for use at Fort Peck Lake, Frenso Reservoir, and other waters. “When you move minnows around like that, you’re certainly moving other things too,” he says. In addition to possibly spreading disease and invasive species, overaggressive seiners may deplete some prairie streams of forage fish needed for other fish and wildlife, Frazer adds. [Keep in mind that many Montana waters restrict the use of live minnos or live bait altogether. In fact, the Montana regulations read: Carp, goldfish, all species of the sunfish and bullhead catfish families, yellow perch, and rainbow smelt may not be used for live bait in Montana.
With few exceptions--which are listed in the Central and Eastern district regulations--live fish may not be used for bait in Montana.
Possession of live bait fish is prohibited in waters closed to using live fish for bait.].
Because zebra mussels have reached western states and silver carp are now in South Dakota, Montana may need to further tighten intrastate minnow movement. “Most surrounding states and provinces are tightening their restrictions on minnows, and Montana is feeling pressure to do the same,” says Steve Dalbey, FWP northeastern region fisheries manager. Dalbey says the use of live bait has been banned in Idaho, Alaska, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and parts of Ontario. In Wyoming, minnows may be used only in the drainage from which they were seined."
Besides Utah and Idaho, Oregon also has a ban on live bait and the use of minnows as does Washington. Additionally, most states do NOT allow the "unrestricted use" of live minnows. In fact, most states that do sell live minnows do so with the law in place that they must be used at the water in which they were sold. Many of these same states also require that the receipt form the purchase of these live minnows remain on the fisherman's person proving where the minnows were purchased.
The minnow regulations is akin to a tackle restriction or a bait fishing restriction...sure, fishermen may benefit from the use of bait on some waters but the restriction is in place for a good reason.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - PBH - 01-16-2019
[quote TubeDude]They are afflicted with DWR DNA and always march lockstep along the "never wrong" lines of their heritage.
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"never wrong" lines of our heritage??
scratching my head on that one...
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Re: [EyLayo] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - TubeDude - 01-16-2019
[#0000FF]The reasons offered by DWR is that they do not want non-native or overly competitive species in managed waters. The translation is that they do not want any more chubs in rainbow trout waters because chubs eat the same foods as small rainbows. They out-compete them...resulting in stunted rainbows. My own translation...from years of living in Utah as well as several other states...is that DWR does not want to give anglers any advantage that helps them catch more of their hatchery pets...same reason for not allowing corn for so many year.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]All of the waters that have been poisoned to remove chubs have been habitat for planted rainbows. It is almost a capital punishment crime to suggest that if there are chubs in a given water, quit planting rainbows and plant other species that can eat the chubs and provide an alternate fishery to the many rainbow waters. It would avoid years of worthless trout fishing, followed by poisoning...chubs showing up again...and more bad fishing years.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]DWR blames all recurring infestations of chubs on bucket biology. The truth is that if they only treat a lake...and not all of the tributaries and side channels...there will be surviving chubs. And it only takes one dedicated pair to start the next invasion. That has happened in Strawberry several times. And Scofield. Chubs are native to Utah and they live in a lot of places...and are difficult to eradicate completely.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Shad in Willard? Again, the "what if" argument. What if some stupid fisherman carried a spawn ready pair of gizzard shad to a hatchery pet water? Those gizzard shad eat plankton...just like trout. And in a matter of time they would greatly impact the growth and survival of the wimpy wainbows.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]I haven't heard a good argument for not allowing anglers to catch and cut up shad for bait. The only good reason I can think of is that they STINK. Plenty of good baits without having to use shad.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]How is the shad ban working out? So far, so what.[/#0000FF]
[#0000FF]Shad have escaped Willard through the outlet and have wormed their way through the maze of fresh and salt water channels into the lower Bear River system. DWR doesn't like it but the cats and walleyes do. Those species are getting bigger and more numerous. Where is the anticipated damage? It seems like shad have just about wiped out all the hatchery trout...that escaped warm temperatures, cats and walleyes. National disaster.
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Re: [EyLayo] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - PBH - 01-16-2019
[quote EyLayo]What are the given reasons why Utah doesn't allow live minnows?[/quote]
Since Utah seems to be the scapegoat here, I'll provide an answer from a different state: Idaho
https://idfg.idaho.gov/question/what-types-live-bait-are-allowed-be-used-idaho
Live baitfish are also illegal in Oregon. Utah isn't alone on this.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wormandbobber - 01-16-2019
Again, TD you fail to mention anything about the problems associated with native fish populations including cutthroat and nonnative fish populations of trout like brook trout.
In truth, it appears as though you are being intellectually dishonest. But, it is me that is contrarian. Right? The funny thing is that every other trout state out west has similar regulations in trout drainages at a minimum. Some have the same regulation statewide.
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Re: [RockyRaab] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - Fishrmn - 01-16-2019
[quote RockyRaab]The fairly consistent rumor is that DWR doesn't want to cause "minnow bucket biology." Which is to say they don't want lakes that don't have "spiny humped piranha chubs" to be planted with them by anglers.
I'd be content if they'd allow a crawfish-like program that said "Only live minnows trapped or netted from a given lake may be used on that lake. No live minnows may be transported from any lake."
For a start, anyway.[/quote]
If that would work, I'd be for it. It won't. People feel privileged to move whatever species they want to move as it is. The UDWR just got through poisoning Payson Lake to remove goldfish.
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Re: [wormandbobber] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - TubeDude - 01-16-2019
[#0000FF]If any other BFT member said something in the forest, and you were not there to hear them, would they still be stupid, ignorant, misinformed, etc.?
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wormandbobber - 01-16-2019
Come on TD....I haven't been derogatory towards you or anyone else in this thread. If you want to discuss the original post or live bait in Utah that is great. But, right now you are the pot calling the kettle black! How ironic that is....
....and to be clear, I like using minnows as bait.
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Re: [wormandbobber] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - TubeDude - 01-16-2019
[#0000FF]Sorry for my rant...and for any personal insults that may have landed in your lap. I do respect your heritage and your depth of knowledge on all things piscatorial...especially in Utah.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]Howsomever, lets address the original question. The hardlined unwavering moratorium against using live minnows. It is easy to understand the need for keeping potentially disease carrying fish of any species from being wantonly released anywhere. It is equally understandable to refrain from using minnows not already found in any given water. It is hard enough to manage a water without throwing new players into the equation.[/#0000FF]
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[#0000FF]But those things do not answer the question of why not be able to use live minnows caught from the waters in which they will be used? Two good examples are chubs and redside shiners from Strawberry and Scofield. No good reasons for not being able to use them. Help deplete the minnow population and help anglers to catch more fish. Win win. Right?
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Re: [SBennett] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - BURLEY - 01-16-2019
Your request for fun experiences seems to have been railroaded by opinionated thoughts. To keep with what you had requested, here is one of my experiences.
Having grown up in Arkansas where it is common practice to use live minnows, I had been fishing for crappie on Degray Lake. I had a 3 inch minnow on a single crappie hook when my bobber went under. Setting the hook, I had a nice 8 inch crappie coming to the boat. Half way into the retrieve, my rod bent over big time. A largemouth bass decided that he needed the crappie more than I did. After a nice wrestling match with him, I managed to bring him to the boat. It was about a 3 lb'r. The best part of this story is that I still had the minnow, the crappie, and the bass on. The crappie knocked the minnow up the line and the bass knocked the crappie up the line. I now tell the story of catching 3 fish on one hook on a single cast.
I hope to hear other stories like this on this post. In Arkansas, almost every town has a bait shop where you can buy live minnows. They will have a selection of both species and sizes to chose from.
I tend to agree with Rocky that you should be able to use live minnows on the water where they are caught.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wormandbobber - 01-16-2019
Thank you...this we can debate! I would argue that the problem is that we open up a can of worms where fishermen will look to keep bait alive--whether it is in a live well or a cooler. The problem, as I see it, is that some of those same fishermen may forget to dispose of those live baitfish once they leave the fishery. Ultimately, whether by design or not be design, those baitfish end up being released in a new body of water. That is a can of worms I don't want opened. Again, I can think of several waters that I love to fish that have been ruined over the years because someone let their live bait go...golden shiners, mountain suckers, utah chubs, goldfish etc.
And, Utah is not alone in their thought process. The truth is that MOST states have some kind of regulations that either totally disallow live bait or disallow the use of live bait to some extent for the same reasons mentioned in other posts.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wall3y3 - 01-16-2019
95% of the sport species we fish for in Utah are introduced or not native to the lake/drainage they are found in. Maybe someone can list the waters in Utah where only native species exist? I am not aware of any. I agree with Tube Dude. It really boils down to what people want to catch. Utah has a long heritage of favoring the slime rockets.
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Re: [wormandbobber] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - TubeDude - 01-16-2019
[quote wormandbobber]Thank you...this we can debate! I would argue that the problem is that we open up a can of worms where fishermen will look to keep bait alive--whether it is in a live well or a cooler. The problem, as I see it, is that some of those same fishermen may forget to dispose of those live baitfish once they leave the fishery. Ultimately, whether by design or not be design, those baitfish end up being released in a new body of water. That is a can of worms I don't want opened. Again, I can think of several waters that I love to fish that have been ruined over the years because someone let their live bait go...golden shiners, mountain suckers, utah chubs, goldfish etc. [/quote]
[#0000FF]Thankfully, not all of the laws we live by are influenced by the "what if" factor. If that were the case nobody would be allowed to drive, because "what if" they got in an accident? Or nobody could buy matches or a lighter, because "what if" they started a fire?...ad nauseum.
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[#0000FF]There seems to be a hardcore group of scofflaws that seems determined to deliberately challenge every regulation on the books...fishing or otherwise. It makes no difference what we forbid because they do what they darn well please. But it also seems unfair to punish or restrict the general (law-abiding) populace just to try to thwart the stupidity of the few.[/#0000FF]
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Re: [BURLEY] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - RockyRaab - 01-17-2019
Okay...another short story.
I was trolling on Willard when my lure suddenly stopped vibrating. "Weed" I thought, and reeled in. Rather than a weed, I had snagged a 3" shad.
I was tempted, I admit. But I dutifully removed it and tossed it back into the water, where it kicked feebly. I had just turned my kayak back on course when I heard KERSPLOOSH. I looked back to see spreading waves - and no floating shad.
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Re: [TubeDude] Fun discussion about using live minnows, real life stories wanted: - wormandbobber - 01-17-2019
[quote TubeDude
[#0000FF][b]Thankfully, not all of the laws we live by are influenced by the "what if" factor. If that were the case nobody would be allowed to drive, because "what if" they got in an accident? Or nobody could buy matches or a lighter, because "what if" they started a fire?...ad nauseum.
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No, but thankfully some are. Like our drunk driving laws--not every drunk driver gets in an accident or kills someone, but some do and we try to prevent more from happening by having laws that prevent it. We do know that the likelihood of someone getting hurt or an accident happening increases when people drive drunk, so we regulate it and make laws trying to reduce the issue. The same goes with the use of live bait, in my opinion. The use of live bait will only exacerbate the problem of people moving fish, so we create laws to help reduce the problem. That is a good thing.
We could literally go on for days talking about laws that are in place to prevent bad things from happening.
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