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+--- Thread: pike age question (/showthread.php?tid=860197)
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pike age question - Mooncricket - 01-15-2014
So all this talk about large pike and what's the best methods of maintaining a healthy fishery my question is do pike grow as.slow as the lake trout in the gorge are the 35 plus size fish in yuba old like over ten years old or do they grow faster depending on the food they have available?
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Re: [Mooncricket] pike age question - isda - 01-15-2014
I read somewhere, that a 36" pike can be 10 years old and will max out at 20 years. It takes them roughly 2 years to reach 18" -24". Depending on food source.
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Re: [Mooncricket] pike age question - RyanCreek - 01-15-2014
Two major factors will affect the growth rate and life expectancy of pike, and that is 1) the available food source, and 2) latitude/water temperature. They also tend to be much faster growing and shorter lived than lake trout. They also reach sexual maturity and began reproducing at a younger age than lake trout, which in my mind means that pike are not as sensitive to over-harvesting as lakers.
In Canada it has been found that pike in the warmer southern latitude waters grow about twice as fast as those in the more northern/arctic waters, but only live half as long. Now keep in mind that this is still way up north from us in Canada, but those pike in the southern latitude waters have an average life expectancy of only 10-12 years. The northern/arctic pike may live up to 24-26 years (this is actually about as long as the average lake trout life expectancy, although some lake trout can live up to 50 years - according to an Alaskan study).
Female pike are the faster growing, larger, and longer living sex. Trophy pike are the females.
Utah is at the extreme southern latitude as far as pike fishing goes, and Yuba also offers them a great food source in the way of carp. Yuba pike are not stunted like they are in Redmond, so I would expect any pike over the age of 10 there to be a large and old female.
See this basic chart based on a Minnesota study for reference. For many reasons, I believe Yuba would fall under fast growth.
[inline "Pike growth age.jpg"]
For those who may be wondering, tiger muskies exhibit something called "hybrid vigor" and grow faster than both the pike or the muskellunge parent.
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Re: [RyanCreek] pike age question - stan55 - 01-16-2014
great post especially showing what happens when pike "stunt" - the yellow line. That's a reason to let the big pike go. Keep the genes for size in the population.Tigers do grow faster but don't live as long as muskies nor do they get as big.
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Re: [RyanCreek] pike age question - pezvela - 01-16-2014
thank you for your thoughtful input. It adds insight to the conversation and will contribute to the decision making process to many of us that struggle as to the new management plan....To kill or to release these great fish, particularly the big spawning females?
I, for one, am opposed to the 20 fish limit. It spells waste. This is an irrefutable fact.
As an example,even if the law allowed the harvesting of 20 pheasants a day and I could have 2 days possession limits. I would not. If pheasants were as common as sparrows, I still would not nor would I take more of anything than I could eat.
I can understand the logic of it, just as I can understand no limits on stripe bass on Lake Powell. During my tenure on Powell we caught 1,000's of striped bass, aside from those that were emaciated due to no forage base, none were wasted. All were consumed by us or filleted, wrapped and given to those who wanted to eat them. This new limit is going to lead to blatant waste of a magnificent game fish.
From my experiences on Yuba the fish are healthy and the numbers have not outgrown the carp forage base. The fish are not stunting as a result of over-populations and they might never if good spawning conditions do not materialize in the future.
I am an old opinionated man and fishing is my last great passion. To me and many of my angling friends it comes to this; in spite of the legality of the killing of the big spawners and even the scientific necessity of doing so...Will we?
I think you know the answer.
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Re: [pezvela] pike age question - Mooncricket - 01-16-2014
With all this info what do you guys think is the biggest reason for the high limit on thepike? Is it because they have eevidence of so many of the smaller 20 to 25 inch pike in the lake wonder why they wouldn't just have a rule of only one over 30inches or something of that sort
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Re: [RyanCreek] pike age question - wormandbobber - 01-16-2014
[quote RyanCreek] and Yuba also offers them a great food source in the way of carp. Yuba pike are not stunted like they are in Redmond,[/quote]
Much of what you have said I agree with; however, I want to make a couple points relating to the above quote: The size of northern pike that actually consume carp will vary with the seasons. Carp are usually only a primary component in the diets of small northern pike during the summer months when juvenile carp are present. On the flip side, large pike will utilize carp throughout the year including the winter months. Generally speaking, the only carp consumed by small pike are little young of the year carp that measure less than 4 inches in length. But, in winter the carp that are consumed are greater than 4 inches and usually greater than 8 inches.
The problem you get with carp being a major food source for pike is that since they are only available for a short window of time, the small pike struggle to find food sources except for that time period when small carp are available. This will dramatically slow their growth throughout most of the year. In Yuba, as the population of pike grows and the number of small pike utilizing that small carp food source grows, growth will also slow. And, the number of pike converting to a larger carp diet during winter will also slow...and eventually you end up with a stunted population like Redmond.
So, the question is how do you avoid this from happening? Some are suggesting that we protect the large fish...and harvest only the small fish. It is true that by protecting those large fish you will have increased predation of carp; it is also true that by protecting them you assure that they remain in the reservoir. The question is whether or not this will help the fishery maintain and grow a large number of big predators and sport fish. With slowed growth rates in smaller pike because their primary food source is only available during the summer, fewer pike are going to reach sizes where they can utilize carp year round, and eventually the pike that are already big will be gone and you will have nothing to replace them!
Personally, I think the key is eliminating as many pike as possible to help increase the growth rates of the smaller pike. The reason we have big pike in Yuba now is because the pike had a head start on the other fish in the reservoir. This head start resulted in fast growth rates....as the reservoirs proverbial bucket, though, has filled the growth rates are undoubtedly slowing down. We need to harvest pike in order to get those growth rates high enough that small pike are converting to larger sizes of carp as a food source and are utilizing those fish year round.
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Re: [Mooncricket] pike age question - PBH - 01-16-2014
[quote pezvela]
From my experiences on Yuba the fish are healthy and the numbers have not outgrown the carp forage base. The fish are not stunting as a result of over-populations ...[/quote]
[quote Mooncricket]With all this info what do you guys think is the biggest reason for the high limit on thepike? Is it because they have eevidence of so many of the smaller 20 to 25 inch pike in the lake...[/quote]
The proof is in the pudding.
I commented about his on another thread: Why are people catching pike at Yuba right now?
1. because there are a lot of pike
2. because they are hungry.
Go look back at the graph posted by Ryan.
Now, looking at that graph, read pezvela's quoted comment above: the fish are healthy and are not stunting.
Now, consider that just maybe we are in year 4 or 5 on Ryans graph. Pike have been in that zone of maximum growth -- fast growth rates. But, guess what? we're peaking. We're hitting the summit. Anglers are seeing more, and more pike. They are getting more "catchable". Why? high numbers of hungry fish.
Also, people need to remember that fish are not like mammals. They are not like a mature bull elk that scores over 400 inches, vs.a mature bull elk that scores 250. Fish are very plastic. They grow to their environment. So worrying about the genetics of those "big" fish is silly, because even those smaller stunted fish have the "big fish" genes in them. Protecting the big fish isn't a biological necessity to maintain trophy fish. It is a feel-good thing that anglers request because they don't understand fish biology.
Keep the limit on pike high. Whether the person eats them or not, it still benefits the fishery!!
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Re: [wormandbobber] pike age question - Kent - 01-16-2014
"With slowed growth rates in smaller pike because their primary food source is only available during the summer, fewer pike are going to reach sizes where they can utilize carp year round, and eventually the pike that are already big will be gone and you will have nothing to replace them!"
I am not advocating for keeping or releasing the larger pike; however, I would like an explanation of how removing the larger pike provides any more smaller carp for the smaller pike to utilize? Are you saying that the larger pike are eating small carp that could have been utilized by the smaller carp?
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Re: [kentofnsl] pike age question - PBH - 01-16-2014
kent -- no. What he's saying is that people are too concerned with protecting the larger pike. There isn't a lot of biological reason to protect them. They will eventually disappear, regardless of a slot to protect them, and they will not be replaced because the smaller pike won't ever reach those trophy sizes. So, eventually, what will you be protecting with a "trophy" slot regulation? Nothing.
The answer is to continue to harvest pike. Any size. Lot's of them. If you continue to harvest a lot of pike then you keep all pike in the zone of high growth rates. High growth rates result in big fish. Slow growth rates result in no big fish.
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Re: [kentofnsl] pike age question - wormandbobber - 01-16-2014
[quote kentofnsl] Are you saying that the larger pike are eating small carp that could have been utilized by the smaller carp?[/quote]
Yes....I am saying that. Although large pike will try to find the prey that gives them the most bang for their buck, they are opportunistic predators and most certainly compete with the small pike over available food.
I also know that some of the best pike fishing last summer took place after the crawdad spawn/young of year were up on the beaches. The pike were obviously keying on crayfish. Why would they being doing this if the carp were such an excellent food source? It was because the young carp were no longer available. The interesting thing was that it was pike of all sizes keying on these little crayfish....what does that mean?
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Re: [wormandbobber] pike age question - Kent - 01-16-2014
Thanks, I appreciate the additional explanation.
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Re: [kentofnsl] pike age question - wormandbobber - 01-16-2014
One other thing that needs to be noted is that the number of small fish is and will increase after every spawn. Even with low water this winter, brush will be flooded this spring and good spawning conditions are going to exist...so, the number of pike looking to feed on small carp will only increase again after this spring's spawn!
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Re: [wormandbobber] pike age question - dtayboyz - 01-16-2014
Eat the shakers and leave the trophies to be caught another day and besides the bigger ones are full of mercury, that's just basic math.
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Re: [PBH] pike age question - utahgolf - 01-16-2014
[quote PBH]kent -- no. What he's saying is that people are too concerned with protecting the larger pike. There isn't a lot of biological reason to protect them. They will eventually disappear, regardless of a slot to protect them, and they will not be replaced because the smaller pike won't ever reach those trophy sizes. So, eventually, what will you be protecting with a "trophy" slot regulation? Nothing.
The answer is to continue to harvest pike. Any size. Lot's of them. If you continue to harvest a lot of pike then you keep all pike in the zone of high growth rates. High growth rates result in big fish. Slow growth rates result in no big fish.[/quote]
so there's no biological harm in releasing trophy fish? But in doing so, it increases the opportunity for anglers to catch that trophy multiple times? I don't see that as bad. I understand SOME harvest of small pike as a necessary tool, I maybe don't agree with a boat full of fisherman taking 80 pike home, and people will do that, just because they can... But every fishing mag, fishing show where they fish trophy waters, articles I read etc, all say release the big bruisers!!! and keep the smaller ones if you want to eat them, SELECTIVE HARVEST.. I don't see any biological harm in releasing big fish because they do eat BIGGER prey and will much rather go after those bigger prey, they aren't going to eat up the smaller pikes forage base. Sure, big pike can be opportunistic and will eat smaller baits at time but they mostly eat carp of bigger size and eat small pike as their main source of food.
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Re: [utahgolf] pike age question - PBH - 01-16-2014
[quote utahgolf]
so there's no biological harm in releasing trophy fish? But in doing so, it increases the opportunity for anglers to catch that trophy multiple times? I don't see that as bad.[/quote]
There is no biological harm in harvesting them. Don't forget that side.
There is plenty of room for arguing that releasing big pike DOES provide a biological harm.
Sport fishing opportunities, those of catching trophy pike, will increase with additional mortality (ie: harvest) of all size classes of pike. That is a fact. In a healthy system, when a trophy sized fish is removed by harvest another fish QUICKLY replaces that fish and fills the void, thus replacing the trophy fish with another trophy.
The opposite is true in an unhealthy system -- a system where not enough mortality is happening and smaller fish are flooding the system. In that system, when a trophy sized fish is removed it is replaced by multiple small fish with slow growth rates.
So, again, we need to promote harvest and keep growth rates high. With high growth rates you will have more, and more large fish to replace other large fish that are harvested. The argument of "release it so others can catch it" becomes irrelevant because there are enough healthy fish waiting to fill that niche left open by the removal of the harvested fish.
Do you want Yuba to have fast growth rates where smaller fish grow to large fish in a short time period to replace harvested large fish? Or, do you want Yuba to have slow growth rates where large fish die of starvation and small fish never reach trophy potential? It's up to you.
[quote utahgolf]... But every fishing mag, fishing show where they fish trophy waters, articles I read etc, all say release the big bruisers!!! and keep the smaller ones if you want to eat them, SELECTIVE HARVEST.. [/quote]
Who's saying this? The guides. The sponsers. The tournament champions. But who do you NOT hear saying this? The biologists. The managers.
Our biologists, concerning Yuba, have pushed to have a 20 pike limit with 1 over 36". They have done this with the idea of providing a trophy pike fishery for as long as possible. Keeping your limit of pike at Yuba is beneficial to the health of that fishery. The long-term trophy status of this lake depends on mortality of pike. If you want to keep this lake as a trophy fish destination, then harvesting some pike should be promoted and not discouraged.
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Re: [PBH] pike age question - TubeDude - 01-16-2014
[#0000FF]Not to be a doomsayer but all of the pontificating by the biologists goes right out the window with Yuba. It crashes and gets rid of ALL its fish about every 10 years anyway. Getting close to the end of the cycle and we are likely to start all over from square one within a few short years. Let's see which species grabs the top predator spot this round.
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Re: [PBH] pike age question - Kent - 01-16-2014
"Our biologists, concerning Yuba, have pushed to have a 20 pike limit with 1 over 36". They have done this with the idea of providing a trophy pike fishery for as long as possible."
No problem with your statements, except how does planting more walleye in Yuba make any sense from a biological standpoint? If a substantial reduction of pike is essential so that more walleye can be planted I have an issue with that. There are plenty of waters that one can go to catch a walleye and very few waters that have pike.
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Re: [TubeDude] pike age question - Fowl-Hook - 01-16-2014
Any Yuba management plan is probably better with unrestricted harvest in mind (Northerns or whatever). The boom and bust water cycle has always dominated whatever plan or lack of a planning was in place. True planning for a Trophy fishing experience like the Strawberry Cutthroat Hatchery has never permitted this kind of Harvest of the managed species.
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Re: [kentofnsl] pike age question - PBH - 01-17-2014
[quote kentofnsl]...how does planting more walleye in Yuba make any sense from a biological standpoint? If a substantial reduction of pike is essential so that more walleye can be planted I have an issue with that. There are plenty of waters that one can go to catch a walleye and very few waters that have pike.[/quote]
I complete agree. I can't figure out why people want more walleye in Yuba, when we have something special there right now.
Also, maybe I'm mistaken, but is there any plan to actually stock more walleye? Or is the hope that walleye will increase in numbers due to natural reproduction?
Honestly, I don't like walleye. I would much rather see Yuba stay a pike fishery -- has Yuba ever truly had this kind of pike population numbers? I don't think so. This is new territory for Yuba.
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