05-19-2020, 04:54 PM
(05-18-2020, 08:16 PM)dubob Wrote: Bob, you can't "do" physics. You can do the math that explains the physics. You know good and well that physics doesn't mean anything without the math to explain it. The physics is the concept. The math describes it. Saying that it's "not math, it's physics" is disingenuous and you know it.
Oh hogwash. Physics is the scientific study of matter and energy and the relations between them. Nobody needs to use math to understand the relationships; they only need math to define or measure the relationships. In the case of the PIC, one only needs to know that controlling the ions to a desired level (in this case + 0.6 vdc) is better than a negative voltage or a significantly higher positive level. I don’t have to do any math at all to know and understand that concept. And neither do you. Show me one single bit of math that you were required to do to understand that principle.
You know what Bob, that's embarassing. I'm embarassed that you think you can do physics without math. You said you need math to define the relationships but you fully understand those relationships without the math. You want to "control the ions" with .6V But, you have no idea what the effect is because you can't do or understand the math. You can't just shoot .6V into the water and start controlling the ions. You have no idea how any of this works, or allegedly works. That's why you are stuck on the prinicple because you can't see the numbers behind what you are saying. You can't even do Ohm's law with the information you know. Nor do you know the resistance of stainless steel wire. Nor do you know or understand the permittivity of water using a stainless steel braided line as a transmission line. These are fundamental issues that you just gloss over for "principle." There is a lot of math you have to know to do any of what you are proposing.
And no one has argued that water doesn't conduct electricity and the more free conductive minersals in it, the more electricity it will conduct. But you are talking about running .6v down 40-80 feet. The electrical field that creates is virtually zero, like approaching zero as the limit of the water's conductivity approaches infinity. That's less than your two AA batteries, which I might also note is a test run in salt water with sharks, which is more conductive than water in lakes, for the most part. Whatever field there is, is gone, real quick.
I don’t care how much cable you let out – the voltage you measure between the cable and the boat will be + 0.6 vdc with the Cannon PIC. And you don’t have a clue as to how big the electrical field is or how far away any species of freshwater fish can detect/feel/sense that field. If, by chance, I’m incorrect and you do have a clue, show me your math that shows me exactly how big the electrical field is an how far away a kokanee salmon can detect that specific field.
So what is the gradient loss of the field intensity as it is transmitted from the source to the ball? Have you thought about that? Or, do you know what that is? Coloumb's Law and Maxwell's equations say that the electrical field is 1 over 4pi E (permittivity of water) multiplied by the integral of the charge density of the length of the field. By the time you are 40ft down, your Volts per meter are going to be in the neighborhood of approximately microvolts per meter. That's 10[sup]-6[/sup] volts per meter. If you were trying to bounce a signal off a satellite in space, that wouldn't be a problem. But you are talking about pumping that into water, which has the permittivity of a block of jello. Actually, jello is probably better. You *might* be able to attract a kokanee to your field if you hit it with the wire. But, then, he should have felt the wire coming, no?
The reality is that my downriggers were not directly electrically connected to anything when I took the steel cable off. That can't be argued. There were no connections between the electronics in the downrigger and the cable. That's not to say that an inductor or a magnet couldn't be in the downrigger body itself. But, there is no direct connection. That you are aware of.
Bob, c'mon. That I'm aware of? I took the thing apart. I replaced the cable. I'm telling you there is nothing electrically connected to that wire. If you want to be stubborn, just say so. But if you want to have an interesting discussion, then you can either accept what I said or take yours apart and show me how the cable is electrically connected to something. But, this is a dumb thing to debate.
As I said, even assuming that there is electricity on the cable, their explanation is plausible for how the auto-up works. The auto up is also defeated NOT JUST BY SUPERLINES but also by using another battery NOT CONNECTED TO THE BOAT's electrical even with the stainless steel cable. Fact. It's how I've run my boat for years, specifically to defeat the auto up. And it is likely because I shut off a negative return through the water. But, again, so what? That doesn't change anything I've said. Not only is it likely, that is exactly why it didn’t work.
The bottom line is that I catch hundreds of kokanee a year. I have shown people on this forum how I do it. I built my own rods to make a better fishing experience and to land more fish. I make my own lures. I have specific hook setups that result in more fish in the boat. I have caught them with and without the "positive ion control" nonsense. I have caught them with superlines and without superlines. I have caught them pretty much every way there is to catch them and I usually have to quit catching them before I'm done catching them because I have limits already.
Everything in my fishing experience says having 2 more lines in the water on a stacker FAR outweighs the value of whatever voodoo electrical nonsense. Everything in my electrical experience says Positive Ion Control catches fishermen, not fish. And, painting my downrigger ball with the superlines has resulted in no change to my fishing success either in terms of the number of hits I get or the number of fish in the boat.
It ain’t voodoo electrical nonsense. The electrical current flowing through the water produces an electrical field around the current flow and perpendicular to the direction of the current flow. This is a condition of the physical world we live in that is measurable. Its already been proven and requires no doing of math by any of us. I know it exists without doing any math.
I, too, ran braided line on my previous Cannon downriggers to eliminate the cable hum. I had no trouble at all catching limits of kokanee at the Gorge and Strawberry using braid. When I bought my new boat in 2017 and ran 4 Scottys on it, I found a voltage level of +0.9 vdc measured between any of the 4 cables in the water and the boat. Still caught salmon, but it took longer, on average, to catch a boat limit. It was taking me 3 hours or longer to get a 6-fish limit at the Gorge when friends using Cannons and essentially the same color flashers and squids were catching 6 salmon in under an hour. I now run Cannons with SS cable and can catch a limit in 90 minutes or less on good days.
Use whatever downrigger brand you want. It’s a free country and you are the only decision maker when it comes to what you want on your boat. Just stop trying to convince others that PIC and Short Stop offered by Cannon is bull crap and worthless.
It absolutely is bull crap and worthless. It is voodoo electrical nonsense made to impress people who don't know better. And I will not stop trying to convince anyone within the sound of my math that it is bullcrap, worthless, voodoo electrical nonsense. You learned the concept of the right hand rule. Thumbs up. But, if you can't calculate volts per meter, it doesn't do you much good, does it? You know it exists but not at what intensity or whether or not it makes any fundamental difference in your fishing.
There are a lot of other things that can explain why your fishing success went down. You have to eliminate every other variable, which you did not do and cannot reasonably do to prove that your boat was the problem.
Cannons are generally available in utah at the sporting goods stores. That's why I bought mine.
Really? That’s the reason you bought Cannon – because it was available in a Utah store. Ever hear about Internet shopping? You can almost always find stuff cheaper to buy in the Internet than you can in a retail store near you. And you get to buy exactly the brand you want.
Yes, I bought them at Sportsmans because I got a deal on them. They were available, they seemed like they would be fine, and I could mount them same day to go fishing for silvers in the ocean. So, yes, I bought them here because they were available and I got a deal. I don't see why that's an issue? Can I not buy them, find out I don't like them, figure out ways to fix them, and tell people what I did to make them better tools?
But that doesn't make them the best downrigger, which is a mistake I made in buying them.
I made my case. The OP can do whatever he wants. But, at least through this process he can see the pluses and minuses of each type of downrigger.
To the OP – Either downrigger brand (Cannon/Scotty) will work to get your lures down to where the fish are congregating on any day, be it 5 feet down or 150 feet down or any depth between. I’ve run mine as shallow is 2 feet down. Both have features that the other does not offer. Both have cons. They are very close to each other in price. I recommend Cannon as the better choice; he says Scotty fits his style better. If you don’t like what you buy after using it for a season, put ‘em on KSL at the start of next season and sell ‘em. Took me less than 2 days to sell all 4 of my Scottys after one season’s use and sold them for about $75 less than I paid for each one.
If you want to save yourself $75/downrigger next year, and you want to stack lines, get a Scotty and never look back. If you want to put voodoo electrical nonsense on your boat and don't want to stack, Cannons will be fine until you lose the bolt that secures the downrigger to the mount or your electrical connectors corrode and you have to contort them in different ways with zip ties you have on your boat for emergencies to get them to work, kind of, for the rest of your trip, get the Cannon. Oh, and be sure to order the second rod holder later from Cannon online. Voodoo electrical nonsense is, but not a second rod holder.