07-11-2012, 03:14 PM
[quote FishingLunatic]Yup and u know why they had to resort to carp? Cause of over fishing lol! Exactly what I'm saying is gonna happen if/when ever they get all of these carp removed.[/quote]
[cool][#0000ff]Okay. I've had enough of your youthful arrogance and ignorance. You know absolutely nothing about the history of Utah Lake and the role played by carp. I have been fishing and watching Utah Lake over twice as long as you have been alive.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Carp were introduced to replace the overharvested and wantonly destroyed trout and suckers...in 1867. Overfishing was only a part of the severe reduction in trout population. It was also caused by farmers damming the Provo River and diverting it out onto their fields...usually about the time the cutts were spawning up in the river. Ditto for the June suckers and other species.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]In those days carp were popular throughout the world as both a game fish and a food fish. They were not planted in Utah Lake with the plan to forever ruin it for other species. It made sense at the time.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]What could not have been planned was the major drought cycle that hit the area around 1930. There were no control gates at the mouth of the Jordan River to try to control the depth of the lake and it dropped to about a foot deep over most of the lake. The only species in the lake that could survive those conditions were the carp. When normal weather returned and the lake filled again the carp exploded. There were no predators left to keep them in check. Since that time the carp have destroyed the ecosystem of the lake and made it a tough habitat for any other species.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There have been several up and down cycles of the lake since then. Utah is a desert state and subject to periodic droughts. The carp always do just fine, as do catfish and just enough of the "gamefish" species to start a new population whenever the lake stays full for a while...like the past few years.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It is preposterous to suppose that carp are outcompeting other species for anglers' bait and lures. They do not fit into the picture at all when it comes to the population of the other species...except that they prey on the eggs and fry of the other species and destroy the vegetation needed for some of them to spawn and survive. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Walleyes, largemouths, catfish, bluegills, crappies, perch and other non-carp species are a lot more subject to problems when the water levels rise and fall with weather changes. Changes in the weather have a much greater impact on the numbers and sizes of the more desirable species than either angler harvest or the influence of carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Carp have coexisted with the other species for decades and have even contributed a lot to the food chain as well as competing with the other species. Nature has found a way...as they said in the movie Jurassic Park. It is unlikely that carp alone would ever completely take over the lake and eradicate the other species. Hasn't ever even come close. The problems show up among the carp. With their vast numbers they are actually stunting in Utah Lake. The average carp is now much smaller than the average used to be. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Sorry, but I have to laugh whenever I read a new article about how the carp are going to be removed from Utah Lake and it will once again be a crystal clear mountain lake. There has been a major carp seining operation going on in Utah Lake for several generations. They have removed more carp commercially than are now being removed under the June Sucker Recovery program. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Simple math would indicate that if you remove fewer carp over the same period of time that you will not magically remove all of the carp within a few short years. Those things lay bazillions of eggs and they all hatch and grow fast...soon becoming too big for the predators to eat them. They are among the most prolific fish in the world. None of the other species in Utah Lake even begins to compete in the reproduction department.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And, as has been suggested, the netting program is a matter of diminishing returns. The more you net the fewer are left to net...and the wider they are spread out. So you have to work harder to maintain a level of removal. And the carp keep on doing their best to fill in the newly available space.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]You claim to know a lot about fishing at your ripe old age of 18. I suggest that you may be able to catch a few fish but that does not make you a serious fisherman...or an "angler". There is a lot more to owning those titles than simply baiting a hook to catch carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]You could also benefit by spending some time in the library or online to study the subjects about which you keep spouting off and arguing with folks who know infinitely more than you do. Rash speculation and personal opinions mean nothing. And your patently uninformed ranting does little to endear you to the more experienced members of this forum.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I'm done.[/#0000ff]
[signature]
[cool][#0000ff]Okay. I've had enough of your youthful arrogance and ignorance. You know absolutely nothing about the history of Utah Lake and the role played by carp. I have been fishing and watching Utah Lake over twice as long as you have been alive.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Carp were introduced to replace the overharvested and wantonly destroyed trout and suckers...in 1867. Overfishing was only a part of the severe reduction in trout population. It was also caused by farmers damming the Provo River and diverting it out onto their fields...usually about the time the cutts were spawning up in the river. Ditto for the June suckers and other species.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]In those days carp were popular throughout the world as both a game fish and a food fish. They were not planted in Utah Lake with the plan to forever ruin it for other species. It made sense at the time.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]What could not have been planned was the major drought cycle that hit the area around 1930. There were no control gates at the mouth of the Jordan River to try to control the depth of the lake and it dropped to about a foot deep over most of the lake. The only species in the lake that could survive those conditions were the carp. When normal weather returned and the lake filled again the carp exploded. There were no predators left to keep them in check. Since that time the carp have destroyed the ecosystem of the lake and made it a tough habitat for any other species.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]There have been several up and down cycles of the lake since then. Utah is a desert state and subject to periodic droughts. The carp always do just fine, as do catfish and just enough of the "gamefish" species to start a new population whenever the lake stays full for a while...like the past few years.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]It is preposterous to suppose that carp are outcompeting other species for anglers' bait and lures. They do not fit into the picture at all when it comes to the population of the other species...except that they prey on the eggs and fry of the other species and destroy the vegetation needed for some of them to spawn and survive. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Walleyes, largemouths, catfish, bluegills, crappies, perch and other non-carp species are a lot more subject to problems when the water levels rise and fall with weather changes. Changes in the weather have a much greater impact on the numbers and sizes of the more desirable species than either angler harvest or the influence of carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Carp have coexisted with the other species for decades and have even contributed a lot to the food chain as well as competing with the other species. Nature has found a way...as they said in the movie Jurassic Park. It is unlikely that carp alone would ever completely take over the lake and eradicate the other species. Hasn't ever even come close. The problems show up among the carp. With their vast numbers they are actually stunting in Utah Lake. The average carp is now much smaller than the average used to be. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Sorry, but I have to laugh whenever I read a new article about how the carp are going to be removed from Utah Lake and it will once again be a crystal clear mountain lake. There has been a major carp seining operation going on in Utah Lake for several generations. They have removed more carp commercially than are now being removed under the June Sucker Recovery program. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]Simple math would indicate that if you remove fewer carp over the same period of time that you will not magically remove all of the carp within a few short years. Those things lay bazillions of eggs and they all hatch and grow fast...soon becoming too big for the predators to eat them. They are among the most prolific fish in the world. None of the other species in Utah Lake even begins to compete in the reproduction department.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]And, as has been suggested, the netting program is a matter of diminishing returns. The more you net the fewer are left to net...and the wider they are spread out. So you have to work harder to maintain a level of removal. And the carp keep on doing their best to fill in the newly available space.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]You claim to know a lot about fishing at your ripe old age of 18. I suggest that you may be able to catch a few fish but that does not make you a serious fisherman...or an "angler". There is a lot more to owning those titles than simply baiting a hook to catch carp.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]You could also benefit by spending some time in the library or online to study the subjects about which you keep spouting off and arguing with folks who know infinitely more than you do. Rash speculation and personal opinions mean nothing. And your patently uninformed ranting does little to endear you to the more experienced members of this forum.[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff]I'm done.[/#0000ff]
[signature]