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Lots of misunderstandings and misconceptions... A few things I'd like to add.
Jordy has a massive amount of chubs, they are all 12.5'' and 2.2lbs. My hunch is that they are sterile and no longer reproducing. They are pretty much full on predators at this point and also was a large amount of the micro invertebrates. Creating a massive bottle neck issue that was mentioned. This year the state will do some testing and confirm or deny that.
Nobody has talked about the ILLEGAL introduction of perch about 2003-5... They are much to blame for the crash. Pushing out the younger chubs and suckers. Now they for the most part are over stunted. Plus I would hope everyone understands how cyclical they are to begin with. In addition they are going to be in there forever.
There has been no mention of the change of stocking 500,000 3-6'' rainbows annually to only 70,000 9-10'' fish. Essentially the state stopped the bass feeding program. And the data backs that, as soon as that happened the bass started a steady decline. Hopefully the addition of Kokanee will help but I personally doubt it since they do inhabit the same kind of water.
I have been told time and time again by our biologist that in larger and deep bodies of water like Jordanellle anglers and not a solid means for removing or diminishing a undesired spices. So if they are correct the debate of harvest, size, limit and length etc don't matter. They are really there for social reasons not real world biological ones.
Lastly but still very important is the complete lack of crawfish. Which is no surprise very crucial to the success of a small mouth fishery. Crawfish are on the invasive species list and there is way to much red tape to stock, transfer or supplement that body of water with them. Plus even if there wasn't any red tape there are so many hungry and stunted smallies that it would be almost impossible to introduce so many craws thats they would make it be able to get a foot hold for the long term.
IMHO the original management plan of a Small Mouth and put and take rainbow trout fishery was not a great sustainable idea for that fishery. Unless they could've supplemented and got crawfish established, kept pumping in hundreds of thousands of fingerling rainbow (bass feed),kept the illegally introduced perch out
and a decent number of rough fish like chubs and suckers (1-8'') abundant like they once were.
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Don't completely write off crawfish. They are in there. Maybe not very many but they are in there. I've only caught fish in the Rock Cliff arm with them sticking out of their throat. That was a couple years ago. I didn't fish Jordanelle last year.
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[#0000FF]As has been mentioned, there ARE still some chubosaurs remaining in Jordanelle. Just as there were for the last years before they totally disappeared from Starvation. Some of them continue to spawn, but their young are consumed before they ever reach spawning sizes themselves. It has been several years since netting results have turned up any small chubs. Smallies can't eat 12 inch chubs...but they try.
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You are correct they are there and entirely thought the drainage, But they have not and will not be the prey staple for smallies that they need to be.
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[#0000FF]There are no doubt many food tidbits in the running water that would make good smallie chow. But whatever enters the lake quickly disappears into predator gullets.
As I have stated before...apparently to a non-caring readership...both smallies and trout DO feed heavily on the young of the year perch. Virtually all smallies and many of the rainbows (and browns) have small perch in their innards...or are spitting them up when you bring them in. In the past six years I have found NO OTHER FOOD item in any smallmouth or trout I have kept from Jordanelle. So where is all this other food? And why are the fish not taking advantage of it?
Those big chubs are spawning a few babies but they eat more small perch than they produce baby chubs. Not an equitable situation.
I did not say that trout ONLY eat perch. But a high percentage of those caught...all during the year...and especially during the winter...have only small perch in their digestive systems.
Again, I am spouting from empirical evidence. Been there and done that...for the past 12 years. When was the last time you caught a perch, trout or smallie from Jordanelle?
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I mainly target the browns and release them... I keep very few fish, But I agree just baby perch and bass soft plastics in the rainbows I've kept.
The stunted bass I caught last year were just puking the yearling perch. I think it's safe to say that after about 4'' the perch aren't really getting preyed on much.
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Powell or Jordanelle has never had stunted SM bass..
Or maybe you mean the Utah stunt??
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What kind of weights do they get at tournaments there?
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First off as you and your Bro. should know that 2 to 4" is average.. Like in all fish some just get bigger then others..
Now lets say all fisherman go up to the Nell and take home a limit of small fish.. Now what size is small?? 6" or 10" maybe 12" or anything over 10"?? Now what will you have left to get bigger?? All fish over 10" is gone and all you have is little fish again..And as you say they are still stunted..
How dose that help??
And like all posts like this one you and your Bro. try to change the facts or not state the hole truth ..
And when you are wrong you try to get posts locked up??
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The last one I heard of was 7lb range..
Before the regs. change you needed 14lb to be in the top five..
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And on we go. [  ] Cliff does not disappoint with his "not state the hole truth .." I suppose that the "hole truth" is the truth according to Cliff. Same as it ever was.
On a serious note, there has been some good discussion on some topics this afternoon and I figured I'd share my inflation adjusted 2 cents. After all, I'm one of the few anglers that has kept fishing there after things went South a bit and have't had the sense to fish elsewhere for 13 years. . I've also helped the DWR with gillnetting and can share an item or two.
1. As K2 mentioned, there are still a number of chubs in Jordanelle. Virtually all of them are large and very old. It looked like k2 had one smaller one in her batch, we had 1 smaller chub in about a hundred bigguns. The chubs are big enough to be caught on a 4 inch senko. (done it several times) These fish are all fairly old and probably over halfway through their 20-25 year life cycle. They do contribute to the forage base with their offspring, either directly by bass eating the fry or more likely, by perch eating chub fry and then being in turn consumed by bass. These big chubs do no harm and will live out their days, but they won't be replaced. Both perch and smallies are chub Kryptonite. It is a virtual impossibility to remove enough perch or smallies to allow the chubs to return, unless you either drain the reservoir or treat it. Neither will happen.
2. As was mentioned, the perch were apparently illegally introduced. This happened fairly early on when Jordanelle was filling and by 2003, when I moved back to the state, the perch population was at an astronomical number. They weren't put in there in 2003-4 as was stated. The perch and smallie populations expanded together somewhat, but when the perch were at extreme numbers in the early 2000's, I think the perch inhibited bass recruitment a little, which may have sounded bad, but in retrospect was a good thing. Shortly after the perch crashed from their peak numbers, the smallie population took off and the average size dropped.
3. You guys have been arguing about what the bass are eating. Here is what I can share. First, when I helped with gillnetting, I spent a little extra time with the DWR team in processing the catch, including stomach content analysis. The results were as follows. Smallies up to about 7-8 inches had zooplankton in their stomachs. They also had some minnows as well. However, bass over about 8 inches had exclusively perch in their stomachs. No exceptions in this study. Perhaps the spring gillnetting would yield different results, but it does appear that mature smallies in Jordanelle are dependent fairly exclusively on perch. This corresponds with 13 years of fishing experience where I have had about a thousand perch minnows barfed on me and my float tube and as far as I can remember nothing else, except an odd senko or plastic grub or two.
4. With this in mind, it explains a lot of things that have and are happening at Jordanelle. First, when the perch crashed after the bass population exploded in 2008-10, we saw the small bass persist, but the 11-14 inchers became thin and died off. For a couple of years, I was still getting healthy bigguns, (these were probably eating either large perch or chubs or eating finless freddie planter trout) but eventually these slowly died off too due to age or harvest. This also explains what has happened in the last few years when the lake has been full of stunted dinks. The bass are still reproducing and quickly grow to about 7-8 inches by eating zooplankton, but then hit the bottleneck at 8-11 inches and limp along and stay at that size because there isn't enough perch fry food to push them over the top to a larger size. Except for last year, many of these fish were thin. Last year, we saw growth in all phases and an emerging class of 12-14 inchers. Why? Because it seems we had a partial spawning failure in the smallest class of fish, likely due to the extreme low water. Again, it seems spawning failure isn't a bad thing. I also think some bassers are seeing the light and taking fish out. I know I have.
5. Finally, my opinion on what you guys are arguing about.
a) As I see it, only Cliff is disagreeing that more smallie harvest is needed. There may be disagreements on the particulars, but almost all of us can agree more should be harvested. I will maintain, as I've written before, that the bottleneck and a huge percentage of the population is 8-11 inches and the bulk of the harvest needs to take place here to truly get the numbers down.
b) It is true that a decent perch population is required for good growth to be seen in the smallies. It is also true that if there isn't a reduction in the bottleneck population, there won't be good growth even with a healthy perch population. See, TD and PBH are both right.
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Very insightful. Thank you! [cool]
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TD and I agree on many things. We just get to that conclusion in different ways. And, I type in black, he prefers [#0000FF] bold blue[#000000] letters.
Q: Why are there no small chubs?
A: because they all get eaten.
Q: What is eating all of the young-of-the-year chubs?
A: predators (ie: perch, and small mouth bass)
Q: What would happen if you reduced the amount of predators, specifically perch?
A: young-of-the-year chubs would show up again.
The only reason smb are targeting perch is because that's all that's available right now. Reduce the perch and they would be replaced by other species (ie: chubs, shiners, etc.) which the smb would then utilize as a food source.
This isn't much different than Fish Lake and the lake trout. What are the lake trout eating? Rainbow trout. Why? Because chubs are missing. Why are chubs missing? Because the illegally introduced perch wipe out the young-of-the-year.
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive.
cliff -- read the second paragraph of this link (at minimum). What does it say?
http://www.wayneswords.com/index.php?opt...&Itemid=50
keeping small mouth bass would help.
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[quote doggonefishin]And on we go. [ ]
b) It is true that a decent perch population is required for good growth to be seen in the smallies. It is also true that if there isn't a reduction in the bottleneck population, there won't be good growth even with a healthy perch population. See, TD and PBH are both right.[/quote]
My point all along has been that smallmouth do NOT need the perch. I would suggest that if the perch could or would be eliminated and the smallmouth numbers reduced, you would see a huge number of chubs and other forage species come back and the smallmouth would then use these species as forage.
Other reservoirs such as Minersville, Newcastle, Otter Creek, and Piute all are void of perch, yet smallmouth grow large due to their use of chubs among other fishes as forage. The same thing would happen at Jordanelle. The reason smallmouth over certain sizes only had perch in their bellies was because that was the only forage fish available.
The reality, as some have alluded to, is that the illegal introduction of perch is most likely the real culprit for the decline in the smallmouth fishery...
...one more thought, on a side note, to my knowledge smallmouth bass have never been able to put a damper on the chub population in any Utah reservoir like perch have. In Minersville, chubs always remained relatively constant even with high smallmouth numbers...the same can be said about Otter Creek and Piute. IN Newcastle, the golden shiners actually began reducing smallmouth numbers even though they were a forage species for the smallies. And, smallmouth numbers did not begin to rebound at Newcastle until wipers were introduced and knocked the golden shiners down to nothing.
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[quote PBH]TD and I agree on many things. We just get to that conclusion in different ways. And, I type in black, he prefers [#0000ff]bold blue[#000000] letters.
Q: What would happen if you reduced the amount of predators, specifically perch?
A: young-of-the-year chubs would show up again.
The only reason smb are targeting perch is because that's all that's available right now. Reduce the perch and they would be replaced by other species (ie: chubs, shiners, etc.) which the smb would then utilize as a food source.
This isn't much different than Fish Lake and the lake trout. What are the lake trout eating? Rainbow trout. Why? Because chubs are missing. Why are chubs missing? Because the illegally introduced perch wipe out the young-of-the-year.
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive. [/#000000][/#0000ff][/quote]
[#0000FF]For the benefit of those who perceive our "interactions" as rivalry and hostility, let me agree with your statement that we do agree on most basic issues. We have a history. And I DO respect you for your knowledge and abilities.
That being said, I have to wonder if you have ever traced your ancestry back as far as Marie Antoinette. As I recall my history lessons, when she was told that her French subjects had no bread to eat she replied "Let them eat cake". Your proposal to eliminate perch from Jordanelle and let the bass and trout eat other foods is about the same...and makes just as much sense. THERE IS NO OTHER FOOD.
You suggest that in the absence of perch the chubs would magically reappear in sufficient numbers to feed the masses. My questions are 1. how long will that take...and 2. What are they to eat in the meantime?
You cite the problems caused by perch in Fish Lake...a trout pond. The problem and the results are visible. But what about some of the other lakes in which smallies had the same effect...wiping out chubs and/or perch?
Notably we have Starvation. It was formerly a festering chub hole in which it was tough for all except a few big brown trout to survive. Walleyes and smallmouth were introduced and within a short time had reduced Starvation to the current state of Jordanelle...nothing left but giant chubosaurs. Then the walleyes and smallies began to stunt. BUT, then someone introduced perch. Their population exploded...providing a super food source for the walleyes and smallies...and both grew and prospered...along with the perch.
Let's look at Deer Creek. For decades it was full of perch, had lots of healthy largemouths, plenty of big walleyes...and lots of crawdads. Smallmouths were transplanted from Flaming Gorge in the 80's. They grew fast and their population exploded. All of a sudden the crawdads were no longer to be found crawling over all the bottom areas. Perch went into a decline and today it is difficult to even find and catch any...because the stunting smallmouths eat all the baby perch before they can grow beyond fingerling size.
And, about the big chubs. They are their own worst enemies for recruitment of any spawning success. Big chubs become piscivorous and slurp up newly hatched fry of all species...perch, smallmouth, trout and even their own young. At the Deer Valley Ponds...near Park City...I used to catch lots of chubs for (dead) bait . For several years there were plenty of chubs of all sizes. I culled out the ones I liked best for size. Then, within a year or two, there were nothing but a few big chubs. And after they spawned I made minnow runs to try to capture some smaller ones. No good. The ponds were boiling with big chubs assassinating inch long baby chubs. When I returned a couple of months later there were again only the big chubs. No young at all.
Bottom line? Although each species has traits that remain similar regardless of habitat, each lake develops its own unique ecological system. And because Utah waters are mostly dammed impoundments...not natural lakes...they are subject to great water fluctuations and even being totally drained in any given year. Tough for any species to establish and maintain a healthy growing population.
A lot of the problems, as we have discussed and mostly agreed upon, are the result of a fluctuating or scarce food supply. And when the primary food source suffers drastic setbacks it affects all the predators that rely upon that food source for survival.
The term "tipping point" has come up in previous discussions. When the population or abundance of a given food source (perch, chubs, crawdads, etc.) drops below the ability of the water to regenerate it everything goes into a downward tailspin. That is what happened at Deer Creek, Jordanelle, Fish Lake and other waters. I seem to recall that the chub population of Flaming Gorge went from nasty to nothing with a few years...as the smallie population grew. And we have seen it in various forms on Yuba several times during the 5 decades I have fished it and watched it.
We may disagree on reasons and remedies at times. But we can always agree that Utah still has some pretty good fishing...and good management. It is tough to manage the unmanageable. And with the nature of our waters and climate we simply have to be properly grateful for the good times and weather out the bad ones.
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TD, I will say this again...I know of no single place where smallmouth bass have been able to control or reduce chub numbers on their own. All of the reservoirs you mentioned have a bigger predator that is more voracious than smallies--Starvation had walleye, Flaming Gorge has lake trout, Deer Creek has walleye...these predators have been able to control chub numbers. Smallmouth have not.
Again, the examples I listed where only smallmouth existed all show that chubs can thrive and flourish with smallmouth as their primary predator. You asked about what the smallmouth would eat in the meantime for the return of chubs...that answer is simple: chubs wouldn't take long to return. In fact, it would only take a couple years at most for significant increases of chubs to appear if perch were out of the equation. I can say that because I have seen it happen time and again at places like Minersville, Piute, and Otter Creek.
But, we can agree on the idea that we still have some fantastic fishing...
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[quote wormandbobber]TD, I will say this again...I know of no single place where smallmouth bass have been able to control or reduce chub numbers on their own. All of the reservoirs you mentioned have a bigger predator that is more voracious than smallies--Starvation had walleye, Flaming Gorge has lake trout, Deer Creek has walleye...these predators have been able to control chub numbers. Smallmouth have not.
[red]Again, the examples I listed where only smallmouth existed all show that chubs can thrive and flourish with smallmouth as their primary predator.[/red] You asked about what the smallmouth would eat in the meantime for the return of chubs...that answer is simple: chubs wouldn't take long to return. In fact, it would only take a couple years at most for significant increases of chubs to appear if perch were out of the equation. I can say that because I have seen it happen time and again at places like Minersville, Piute, and Otter Creek.
But, we can agree on the idea that we still have some fantastic fishing...[/quote]
Yep.
Perch are a scourge.
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And on we go. [ ] Indeed.
[quote wormandbobber]I know of no single place where smallmouth bass have been able to control or reduce chub numbers on their own. All of the reservoirs you mentioned have a bigger predator that is more voracious than smallies--Starvation had walleye, Flaming Gorge has lake trout, Deer Creek has walleye...these predators have been able to control chub numbers. Smallmouth have not.
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I'm kind of busy at work, so this will be brief and I will contribute more later. However 1 quick comment on this. According to what I've read from the Flaming Gorge guys, they do blame the smallmouth bass for the decimation of chubs at the Gorge. There were still plenty of chubs when the lake had trophy browns and big lake trout, but the stocking of smallies ended that. As for your southern examples, it may have been interesting to follow things out a few years on these, but Otter creek has been controlled. (wipers are only barely showing up this year) Also, if there are abundant crawdads in a given lake, then the smallies will eat these and dine on minnows less. That is definitely the case in your examples. This is not the case at Jordanelle.
gotta run.
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What would the smb eat if perch disappeared?
a. other smb
b. kokanee
c. invertebrates
d. chub young-of-the-year (the chubs would continue to spawn)
e. limited crawfish
f. moss
g. rocks
h. garbage
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Except that neither Otter Creek nor Piute have any kind of significant crawdad population (and the whole drainage was completely void of them not too long ago) and both have had regular rotenone treatments to control chubs over the years despite smallmouth. Also, wipers up to 6 pounds have been surveyed in Otter Creek and a number up to 4. Smallmouth can definitely slow the process of chubs overrunning a fishery, but not control them. Again, I would say that the presence of both lake trout and smallmouth contributed to their decline at Flaming Gorge...(also, it seems to me that Flaming Gorge has a quite healthy population of crayfish. I remember specifically catching crayfish and using them as bait for smallmouth when I lived in Wyoming!).
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