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Possible tough Koke fishing at Jordanelle theory
#1
I have been wondering about the apparent drop off in Jordanelle Koke fishing and why that MIGHT be the case. I had some ideas so I decided to do some "research" and think about personal experiences at Jordanelle.
Here is what I have come up with.

PICS from 2019  Jordanelle trip Wipers and Kokes[Image: Jord-Kokes-Wipers-Me-July-2019.jpg]

 2019 July Trip Jordanelle  Kokanee
[Image: Randy-Tin-Man-Kokes-7-4-19.jpg]
2016
 Kokanee were first introduced into Jordanelle in 2016 150,000  2 to 3 inch Kokes were planted.
 Wipers introduced also in 2016 24,000 at 2.01 inches... No threat to Kokes yet
 TIGER MUSKY introduced  in 2016 8500
Rainbows were also planted and varying amount every year, I wont bother with those numbers.

2017
Kokanee planted at 3.13 Inches 163,000 were stocked into Jordanelle
Wipers another 24,000 planted at 2.01 inches, they and their earlier "Brothers" not much threat to Kokes yet

2018

Koke fishing for me was excellent at Jordanelle, we had great success mostly limits and fast fishing pretty nice sized Kokes. I am assuming there were mostly first year Plants (2016) which would be 3 year old fish

Also in 2018 we had several good days chasing WIPERS that would hit anything. We got wipers to about 14 inches We caught many on 5 inch grubs and crankbaits ( think how a 3 inch Koke would fare) Also heard many caught near mouth of river inlet. That is where any spawned Kokes would return to the lake.

Kokanee Planted in 2018 247,000 at 2.86 inches in april
Wipers planted in 2018 22,500 at 2 inches Now the earlier wipers are getting big enough to eat other fish (kokes)
SPLAKE now introduced 39,000  piscivorous Hybrid  ANOTHER predator
Tiger musky now big enough to eat small fish

2019
Koke fishing was excellent, still good numbers and  fast fishing for Kokes for us, up to 20 inches. Most fish probably 2017 plants not much predation on them as predators are just getting bigger.
Caught a 17 inch Tiger Musky in 2019 and a fair amount of decent wipers

Kokanee planted in 2019 162,000  the lowest number since first year... LOTS of predators to feed on them...
Wipers planted to join the previous plants 25,000
Splake 13,000 at 5,75 wont take long to grow to fish eating size
More Tiger Musky planted 16,500
Cutthroat introduced 36,000 potential fish eaters

2020
Koke fishing still pretty good, but not as good IMHO as 3 previous seasons. These would be mostly 2018 plants. This would be the first plant class that would have lots of large enough, hungry mouths chasing them so one might expect fewer Kokes surviving. NOTE more were planted in 2018 but how many survived predation.

Kokanee planted in 2020 130,000 at 3 inches  This year I think all of the predators (5) now are large enough to eat small fish/Kokes
Wipers 2000 almost 8 inch wipers wont take long before they are munching small fish
Tiger Musky 15000 more planted
Splake 105,000 MORE fish eaters when they grow up.


That brings us to 2021 its still early and I actually hoping in wrong !!

I usually do well on Kokes at Jordanelle ( and other lakes) So far in 4 trips I have only landed 2 Kokes.  Reports I've seen and heard have not been great. There has been pretty good action on Rainbows they are usually planted when larger many planted at 8 to even 12 inches so they would be big enough to avoid being eaten.
We got one fat 17 Inch Splake that my Brother kept it had 4 4" perch in it. I'm wondering how many small Kokes one could eat in a year. as well as all the predators introduced and now large enough to make an impact???

#1 I really do hope I am wrong. I have really enjoyed the action on Kokes and the variety of catch and hope it stay great for KOKES !

#2 This is my Opinion and theory from fishing, observation and public info from DWR on stocking, I welcome any other input or views. I would love to hear thoughts from DWR or informed persons on why they felt the need for so many predators. Usually it seems they go in waters with a rough fish problem something I do not see at Jordanelle? At least they are all Hybrids and they will eventually die out and IF they are a problem, no longer introduced.

#3 I hope all have a safe and great fishing season with much success!

That's my theory and it is just that. It will be interesting to see how it plays out ! I'm thinking this may stir up some comments would be good to hear thoughts.

Ps. sorry for any typos !

Mildog out
time spent fishing isn't deducted from ones life
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#2
(05-03-2021, 06:37 PM)Mildog Wrote: I have been wondering about the apparent drop off in Jordanelle Koke fishing and why that MIGHT be the case. I had some ideas so I decided to do some "research" and think about personal experiences at Jordanelle.
Here is what I have come up with.

PICS from 2019  Jordanelle trip Wipers and Kokes[Image: Jord-Kokes-Wipers-Me-July-2019.jpg]

 2019 July Trip Jordanelle  Kokanee
[Image: Randy-Tin-Man-Kokes-7-4-19.jpg]
2016
 Kokanee were first introduced into Jordanelle in 2016 150,000  2 to 3 inch Kokes were planted.
 Wipers introduced also in 2016 24,000 at 2.01 inches... No threat to Kokes yet
 TIGER MUSKY introduced  in 2016 8500
Rainbows were also planted and varying amount every year, I wont bother with those numbers.

2017
Kokanee planted at 3.13 Inches 163,000 were stocked into Jordanelle
Wipers another 24,000 planted at 2.01 inches, they and their earlier "Brothers" not much threat to Kokes yet

2018

Koke fishing for me was excellent at Jordanelle, we had great success mostly limits and fast fishing pretty nice sized Kokes. I am assuming there were mostly first year Plants (2016) which would be 3 year old fish

Also in 2018 we had several good days chasing WIPERS that would hit anything. We got wipers to about 14 inches We caught many on 5 inch grubs and crankbaits ( think how a 3 inch Koke would fare) Also heard many caught near mouth of river inlet. That is where any spawned Kokes would return to the lake.

Kokanee Planted in 2018 247,000 at 2.86 inches in april
Wipers planted in 2018 22,500 at 2 inches Now the earlier wipers are getting big enough to eat other fish (kokes)
SPLAKE now introduced 39,000  piscivorous Hybrid  ANOTHER predator
Tiger musky now big enough to eat small fish

2019
Koke fishing was excellent, still good numbers and  fast fishing for Kokes for us, up to 20 inches. Most fish probably 2017 plants not much predation on them as predators are just getting bigger.
Caught a 17 inch Tiger Musky in 2019 and a fair amount of decent wipers

Kokanee planted in 2019 162,000  the lowest number since first year... LOTS of predators to feed on them...
Wipers planted to join the previous plants 25,000
Splake 13,000 at 5,75 wont take long to grow to fish eating size
More Tiger Musky planted 16,500
Cutthroat introduced 36,000 potential fish eaters

2020
Koke fishing still pretty good, but not as good IMHO as 3 previous seasons. These would be mostly 2018 plants. This would be the first plant class that would have lots of large enough, hungry mouths chasing them so one might expect fewer Kokes surviving. NOTE more were planted in 2018 but how many survived predation.

Kokanee planted in 2020 130,000 at 3 inches  This year I think all of the predators (5) now are large enough to eat small fish/Kokes
Wipers 2000 almost 8 inch wipers wont take long before they are munching small fish
Tiger Musky 15000 more planted
Splake 105,000 MORE fish eaters when they grow up.


That brings us to 2021 its still early and I actually hoping in wrong !!

I usually do well on Kokes at Jordanelle ( and other lakes) So far in 4 trips I have only landed 2 Kokes.  Reports I've seen and heard have not been great. There has been pretty good action on Rainbows they are usually planted when larger many planted at 8 to even 12 inches so they would be big enough to avoid being eaten.
We got one fat 17 Inch Splake that my Brother kept it had 4 4" perch in it. I'm wondering how many small Kokes one could eat in a year. as well as all the predators introduced and now large enough to make an impact???

#1 I really do hope I am wrong. I have really enjoyed the action on Kokes and the variety of catch and hope it stay great for KOKES !

#2 This is my Opinion and theory from fishing, observation and public info from DWR on stocking, I welcome any other input or views. I would love to hear thoughts from DWR or informed persons on why they felt the need for so many predators. Usually it seems they go in waters with a rough fish problem something I do not see at Jordanelle? At least they are all Hybrids and they will eventually die out and IF they are a problem, no longer introduced.

#3 I hope all have a safe and great fishing season with much success!

That's my theory and it is just that. It will be interesting to see how it plays out ! I'm thinking this may stir up some comments would be good to hear thoughts.

Ps. sorry for any typos !

Mildog out
 sounds like a very reasonable and logical theory to me. I had no idea they were planting so many predators in there. The other Sad part of this is that the quality of koke fishing in strawberry has gone down hill in direct correlation to the reduction in numbers of planted fish as they are taking fish that used to go in Strawberry to plant all these other waters and when they aren't really producing a viable fishery with them it's just that much more disappointing. Starvation would be another great example of a total waste in my opinion doing nothing but hurting the great fishery at Strawberry.
Sunrise on the water
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#3
Its a fascinating and well thought out idea. I have been pondering it while podering in the back yard. (yes Curt - trying to get my priorities right and get my garden in)

I wonder about one other variable. It came to me while thinking about the bucket brigade at the North Marina in Willard. While I am not a frequent koke chaser at the Berry (or other locations) I do on occasion find myself in those areas, at those time, and have a sense that the number of boats/anglers chasing them has steadily increased over your time frame (and maybe even more the last year due to covid). Also it seems the general knowledge level of the koke chasers has significantly improved, along with tackle and electronics . My point is, what impact has harvest had? I know Koke chasers not only love to catch them but they are quite tasty and I would venture that full limits are often taken to the grill where that may not be the case for other species, where releases may be more frequent. I am not saying thats wrong. I love smoke kokes too. Just have to wonder how harvest and fishing pressure may play into your equation?
Remember: keep the lid on the worms, share your jerky, and stop by to say hi to Cookie and the Cowboy-Pirate crew
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#4
Some things to consider.

A- Most of the tiger muskie that they have planted are fingerling size less than two inches. The survival rate on plantings of fish that small are not very good.

B- Tiger muskie are an ambush predator and like to hang around structure looking for prey. I have never see any instances of them suspending out over deep water where most salmon live. I am no expert on this so I could be wrong.

C- After watching the way the tiger muskie had made a home in Pineview and seeing that they have done very little to change the population of the perch and crappie there it wouldn't seem that the salmon would have much to worry about unless they spent a lot of time by the shoreline.

D- It seems to me that wipers prefer warmer water temperatures than salmon and would stay in that temperature range as long as they can find food. I think that the perch and smallmouth bass are in more danger from the wipers than the salmon. The one area where they could have an affect on the salmon is if there is some recruitment from the spawn in the river and the young have to make it out to open water before the predators find them.

With the cutthroat it will boil down to how well they can spawn and reproduce in that environment. If they can't then really it will be just like the splake and depend on how many they plant.

But as stated these are my thoughts and don't carry any weight to them. I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. That I can guarantee.
Live to hunt----- Hunt to live.
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#5
(05-04-2021, 07:50 AM)a_bow_nut Wrote: Some things to consider.

B- Tiger muskie are an ambush predator and like to hang around structure looking for prey. I have never see any instances of them suspending out over deep water where most salmon live. I am no expert on this so I could be wrong.

C- After watching the way the tiger muskie had made a home in Pineview and seeing that they have done very little to change the population of the perch and crappie there it wouldn't seem that the salmon would have much to worry about unless they spent a lot of time by the shoreline.

Many tiger muskie, at Pineview, are caught trolling over the deep open water.  Many anglers believe that they can only be caught by trolling along the shoreline, but this is not correct.
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#6
(05-04-2021, 12:00 PM)kentofnsl Wrote:
(05-04-2021, 07:50 AM)a_bow_nut Wrote: Some things to consider.

B- Tiger muskie are an ambush predator and like to hang around structure looking for prey. I have never see any instances of them suspending out over deep water where most salmon live. I am no expert on this so I could be wrong.

C- After watching the way the tiger muskie had made a home in Pineview and seeing that they have done very little to change the population of the perch and crappie there it wouldn't seem that the salmon would have much to worry about unless they spent a lot of time by the shoreline.

Many tiger muskie, at Pineview, are caught trolling over the deep open water.  Many anglers believe that they can only be caught by trolling along the shoreline, but this is not correct.


Kent is correct, the Muskie will follow the food source. Open water and along the shore in ambush mode
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#7
(05-04-2021, 07:50 AM)a_bow_nut Wrote: Some things to consider.

A- Most of the tiger muskie that they have planted are fingerling size less than two inches. The survival rate on plantings of fish that small are not very good.

B- Tiger muskie are an ambush predator and like to hang around structure looking for prey. I have never see any instances of them suspending out over deep water where most salmon live. I am no expert on this so I could be wrong.

C- After watching the way the tiger muskie had made a home in Pineview and seeing that they have done very little to change the population of the perch and crappie there it wouldn't seem that the salmon would have much to worry about unless they spent a lot of time by the shoreline.

D- It seems to me that wipers prefer warmer water temperatures than salmon and would stay in that temperature range as long as they can find food. I think that the perch and smallmouth bass are in more danger from the wipers than the salmon. The one area where they could have an affect on the salmon is if there is some recruitment from the spawn in the river and the young have to make it out to open water before the predators find them.


With the cutthroat it will boil down to how well they can spawn and reproduce in that environment. If they can't then really it will be just like the splake and depend on how many they plant.

But as stated these are my thoughts and don't carry any weight to them. I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. That I can guarantee.

As to the water temp part I catch most of my Kokes at 10 feet or less at Jordanelle all season that is very warm water as warn as 69 Degrees,  (all season long by the way) that is right in the wheelhouse for Wipers. I am not sure where the little Kokes live, but I bet they are in areas wiper are as well. I have caught a few wiper while trolling for Kokes.
As for tiger Musky and survival, yes it is low, but it is how our lakes have developed their populations so a good number do make it. I'm not sure, But I caught one 2 years ago that was about 17 inches plenty big to eat small fish, it was out in open water while trolling for kokes??  Now for Splake they may be the biggest issue as they I would think would trhive in similar environment and be an issue to the small kokes. I was surprised at how many they out in.

I really didn't mention the Brown Trout, there are quite a few nice ones in Jordanelle and I have caught several over the years over 5 pounds. My best up there was 7 pounds many years ago. They are a efficient predator.
Lastly the Smallmouth love to eat small fish. I have a buddy in Idaho that tells me they have a few lakes where the Smallies get big and eat Kokes while doing so.

More than any one predator being the issue, it is the total of all that seems concerning.

As for Tigers and panfish at Pineview great conditions for the crappie and perch to Spawn and they are very prolific, the Kokes are limited to the number planted, I'm not sure they is much natural recruitment but that s just a guess.

I still don't know if this is on track, still hoping I'm wrong and it turns on. It may explain what we are seeing.
time spent fishing isn't deducted from ones life
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#8
I'm seeing a good logical assumption and do agree, many mouths to feed. Tiger musky will hunt open water, wipers sure will. I never caught wipers while chasing kokes.
Does anyone know when the baby kokes begin entering the open water?
If predators are there we could be there to, and relieve the pressure on the babies.
Great discussion keep it up, express your thoughts. Thanks Mildog
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#9
Great topic, Interesting to see a year to year analysis of the numbers. I guess its time to figure out how to catch those Wipers....
Never had any luck catching them at Jordanelle.
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#10
One question I have had for a while is where are the kokanee from Jordonelle spawning? Generally they like to spawn in lakes, beaver ponds and small streams. Are the going up the upper Provo. If so, where? Is there enough fish spawning each year to replenish or supplement what is being stalked. One of the things that had to be done in Alaska to assist with enhanced fisheries is to literally put fertilizer in lakes where the fish spawned. That way there were enough nutrients in the lakes to grow enough plankton for the baby fish to eat. If there are not enough adult fish to fertilize the spawning grounds then the little fish will not survive.

Interesting theory though. I would like to hear a fish biologist chime in and explain why they think this system will work in the lake.
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#11
(05-04-2021, 12:00 PM)kentofnsl Wrote: Many tiger muskie, at Pineview, are caught trolling over the deep open water.  Many anglers believe that they can only be caught by trolling along the shoreline, but this is not correct.

I stand corrected. 

Thank you for teaching me something new today.
Live to hunt----- Hunt to live.
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#12
I have actually had tigers following Kokes I was reeling in so yes they are already chasing Kokes in deep water. Most musky fisherman troll deep water in the midwest lakes that have ciscoes. Kokes are similiar in their habits. I would expect some really big tigers to start showing up in Jordanelle in the near future.
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#13
(05-04-2021, 02:23 AM)Cowboypirate Wrote: Its a fascinating and well thought out idea. I have been pondering it while podering in the back yard. (yes Curt - trying to get my priorities right and get my garden in)

I wonder about one other variable. It came to me while thinking about the bucket brigade at the North Marina in Willard. While I am not a frequent koke chaser at the Berry (or other locations) I do on occasion find myself in those areas, at those time, and have a sense that the number of boats/anglers chasing them has steadily increased over your time frame (and maybe even more the last year  due to covid). Also it seems the general knowledge level of the koke chasers has significantly improved, along with tackle and electronics . My point is, what impact has harvest had? I know Koke chasers not only love to catch them but they are quite tasty and I would venture that full limits are often taken to the grill where that may not be the case for other species, where releases may be more frequent. I am not saying thats wrong. I love smoke kokes too. Just have to wonder how harvest and fishing pressure may play into your equation?
As far as koke fishing at Strawberry goes it's pretty easy to see a direct correlation in the reduction of stocking numbers. Cutting the stocking in half definitely has had a large impact. Fishing pressure does have an impact as well but I don't believe it has nearly as much impact as the reduction in stocking numbers.
Sunrise on the water
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#14
Dumb question: Why can't the DWR up their production of Kokanee Salmon? I'm sure they are in some ways limited by Facilities. But, with the popularity of these fish I would think they could expand their operation.
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#15
(05-04-2021, 07:56 PM)Outfishing13 Wrote: One question I have had for a while is where are the kokanee from Jordonelle spawning?  Generally they like to spawn in lakes, beaver ponds and small streams.  Are the going up the upper Provo. If so, where?  Is there enough fish spawning each year to replenish or supplement what is being stalked.  One of the things that had to be done in Alaska to assist with enhanced fisheries is to literally put fertilizer in lakes where the fish spawned. That way there were enough nutrients in the lakes to grow enough plankton for the baby fish to eat.  If there are not enough adult fish to fertilize the spawning grounds then the little fish will not survive.   

Interesting theory though.  I would like to hear a fish biologist chime in and explain why they think this system will work in the lake.
Kokanee spawn up the Provo river in pretty significant numbers I have gone up and viewed them. I posted a couple pics in another post. They run quite a ways up the river. I am not sure how successful the spawn is, but they do spawn up the Provo in the fall.
Mildog
time spent fishing isn't deducted from ones life
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#16
I am not personally convinced that the Kokes were expected to become so good there in the first place. To me, it looked like an experiment that worked, but the wheels were already turning on the addition of the predators so the Kokes got caught in the crosshairs.

The perch are not a problem there, but the smallmouth bass are. I think the predators are in there to put a serious hurt on the smallies to get the population back in line. At least they are sterile predators that are more easily controlled once the smallies are back in line. Then the Kokes should start to meet their full potential.

Interesting analysis, interesting conclusions, but, believe it or not, I think the issue is even more complex. uggg.
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#17
I think you make some very valid points in your theory. Splake, Browns, Wiper, Musky, Smallmouth, (I've heard of a few Walleye), even rainbows will take their toll on the 2.5" smelt the DWR plants.

I also think there is a healthy dose of Kokanee will be Kokanee. I would wager there are less than 20 or 30 people in the state that caught more Kokes than I did last year, but there were a few days that I couldn't seem to buy a bite, especially in August. My mind went to all sorts of different conclusions: "The COVID crowd fished them out! The power squadron has them scared up into the coves!" ad nauseum. In reality, they moved on me as they began to stage to spawn, and once I found where they went and what they wanted (it was oddly specific), I was back in business.

Jordanelle seems to be a case of the fish biologists throwing "stuff" at the wall, and seeing what sticks. Seems that Kokanee will stick rather well, if managed correctly.
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#18
I agree with you much of your thoughts Angling Archer and BYUHunter ( do you hunt Zoobies Lol sorry I couldn’t resist) I would say that I catch my fair shore and do as well as most in many waters in Ut and other states on Kokes.
At Jordanelle for the last three years I have had no trouble limiting the boat usually in short order, from late April to August, when I start doing other things, like bow hunting. last year Jordanelle was on in March!!!
So far this year it has been tough for me and for several others that I know are very accomplished koke fishers. The fact the other lakes are already “on” shortly after ice out while Jordanelle does not seem to be happening makes me nervous. It’s not that big and easier to search and find them than most lakes.The timing of the slowdown, if there is one, lines with my predator theory. From the time and size they were planted this would be the year the issue would begin to have a serious effect.
As we all know time will tell. Still hoping I’m wrong but will be heading to greener pastures in and out of state soon. Will be chasing smallies walleye wipers and turkeys soon as well, so many targets and so little time!! Lake Powell was good action for SMB,LMB,crappie we targeted Walleye a bit more and filleted 25 for groceries, cut the crappie a break and also released everything else, just kept the walleyes.
Mildog
time spent fishing isn't deducted from ones life
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#19
Wondering if anybody is finding any KOKES at Jordanelle? I’m not hearing or seeing anything positive. Might make one more try then if nothing I’m done, will chase kokes elsewhere.
Mildog
time spent fishing isn't deducted from ones life
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#20
Going to go try for them tomorrow. Hope to find some that want to play.
Live to hunt----- Hunt to live.
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