Braided vs. Mono on older Spinning reels?

[reelworks]

I was about to spool my Penn 9500ss with Berkley Whiplash or even Power Pro, and was told by a local tackle shop that I would be wasting my money because these reels are not braid friendly?

My 9500ss does have a bearing type line roller, and the line lay is centered with a good cross wrap, so I don't really see why it would be a problem? The deeper spool should work well to prevent wind knots that I find common on my Daiwa Emblems.

I have come to really like the feel of braided line, especially the zero stretch. If not on the Penn reels, would a Daiwa BG90, GS90, RG4000, or a 4000C be any better? I do prefer the Penn for overall strength though, I feel it's a bit tougher reel overall, not to mention the higher speed retrieve. I have a few conventional reels that I use as well, and have stuck to 50# Power Pro on those with good luck, but there are a few situations where I like having a super duty spinner handy.

Does anyone use braided line on a larger Penn SS? Any problems?
How about the older Daiwa reels?
Is there a minimum diameter that works best with the older style reels?
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[Tarpon4me]

There is only one problem with using certain types of Braid on a spinning reel, alot of braid lines are more flat than rounded, and they twist something feirce on spinning reels. And what happens to the casting process when braid twists on the spool? It causes a nasty backlash the first time any slack is left in the line. Stren Super Braid is suppose to be a pretty "rounded" braid. []

Personally, i'm not a big braid fan. I like the shock absorbing qualities of Mono, and I can live without the line compacity. Braid is awesome for "chunking," especially with spinning outfits. However, I never have the need to do so in my local salty pond.

I know tuben2 likes to play with the braid, maybe he'll have a little more insight.
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[tubeN2]

I like the braids but don't like the performance on the spinning rod. Aside from that, most of the guides on the spinning rods won't support braided line without wearing a groove in them.

The groove comes out more prominantly when you are fishing stained water or muddy water. It tends to pick up sand and sediment from the water and cuts the grooves quicker.

As was aformentioned, most lines are flat and will only cause twist as well as problems.

If you were to use any thing on a spinning reel, I would not use anything higher than 10lb Power Pro brand. It comes with light coating that resists picking up some (not all) of the contaminents from the water.[cool]
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[Tarpon4me]

Maybe a Hybrid line would be in order. You'll get the smaller diameter, it just won't be quite as small as the braid would be, but it will still be considerably smaller than mono. Though hybrid tends to have bad memory, it would meet all your needs of strength, small line diameter, and abbrasion resistance.
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[reelworks]

I've been using 30lb test Power Pro on nearly all of my newer reels, and all of my freshwater reels for years with no problem? I haven't had any guide problems at all. (I did had Fireline groove some of my older rods, but that's not a braided line), but haven't had any problems since switching to Power Pro. I have run Whiplash on three of my smaller surf outfits for 3 years, with no problems at all either. Even when I was using Fireline, the only wear I did get was on the tips of my plugging or jigging rods, nothing was noticable on the live bait set ups.

As far as running braided line on conventional reels or rods, the guides on a conventional rod are made of the same materials as a spinning rod, so I don't see where that would make a difference?
I would venture to say that any good quality aluminum oxide, non cushioned guide like the Fuji Hardloy or Pac Bay Hialoy guides or better would all hold up to any braided line made today. It's the older ceramic or chrome plated or bronze guides that had serious problems with the early braids. Besides, there were some early braids that used Kevlar or other fibers that were abrasive, Spectra and Dyneema are both very guide friendly. While dirt can be picked up on the line, the amount that it would take to groove a good quality guide, especially in a live bait fishing application would be almost non existant. I freshwater fished in cedar water for years with Fireline and Power Pro and neither ever grooved any of my aluminum oxide guides. (Fireline did groove a few of my older brown ceramic equipped guides, but they were cheap guides to begin with).

I do see where running a very small diameter line on an older conventional reel could be a problem, I have seen cases were the lighter lines have gotten behind the spool, a good cure for that is to simply run a heavier line. I have several Penn GTi series reels on boat rods, and find that I'm safest running nothing lighter than 50lb test, and 65 or 80lb on the larger reels. (I have 100lb test on my 345GTi reels on Roller Rods, simply since it was the only diameter that wouldn't foul in the roller guides, and can't get behind the spool. The larger diameter also helps prevent ugly crossed lines.

I am more concerned about the older spinning reels. As far as the line being flat, only the original Spiderwire is real flat, with Power Pro, Stealth, Stren Braid, Tuf Line, and Fins are round braids, with Power Pro and Stealth being the most round. Whiplash sort of has a combination of characteristics, it's a braid like Power Pro, made of Dyneema fibers like Spiderwire, but is not round and tightly woven like Power Pro. Whiplash seems to be the strongest as far as size vs. test. I have Whiplash currently on several Okuma EB80 reels and have never had any problems with line twist, no have I seen any line twist on my Daiwa Emblem reels. (It's been my experience that any reel that uses a 'V' groove type line roller all seem to do an excellent job controlling line twist, regardless of the type of line).

My concerns are with why so many insist on not using it on the older reels? I could understand if there was no line roller, or if there was a gap next to the line roller that could catch the line, but the Penn and Daiwa reels seem fine that way. I can understand not using it on a reel like an old Mitchell 302, since it has no line roller and the non skirted spool could allow the line to get behind the spool.

The Penn 9500ss looks like it should work fine?
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[Tarpon4me]

Ahhh yes, the old "line between the spool" senario. Been there, done that, more times than I care to mention. That's also a reason I don't like roller guides on stand up rods.

As for braids claiming a rounded shape, beware. Of all the braids i've used in the past, the only one i've tried that seems suitable for a spinning outfit is that Stren super braid. Mind you, I haven't tried alot of the newest stuff, I stopped investing the money in that expensive line, especially since it was just for the sake of experimenting.

I'm like Tubn2, my past experiance involves grooved eyelets on my rods. However, I had the stock eyes on my rods, which was part of the problem. The newer rods of now shouldn't have that problem. If you're horsing a large fish, that stuff will slice right into a medium grade eyelet. I always figured it was simply the heat from smoking runs that cut them down. One of the rods, which I still have, had a groove BURNED into it. It's a Penn Slammer, 7' outfit. I still have the rod, i'll see if I can dig it out and post a picture of the eye. I remember when it happened. I had some hellafide old school dacron on the reel. Something hit my bait and was just smoking it. I was really putting the heat on the fish because I was on a peir. Next thing you know, my line just broke loose. After observing the line and rod, I could see where the dacron had litterly melted a groove in the eye of that rod. Not cut, not scratched, not chiped; melted it got so hot.

Something else i've run into using braid on a baitcaster is the line sinking in on the reel under heavy pressure. I got a spool of that Calcutta braid one time, and I promise, I put that stuff on just as tight as it would go. The first time I set the hook on a fish, the line buried in the spool. I was so pissed I stripped all 15 dollars worth of line off of the reel and spooled it back up with berkely big game; what I should have put on there to begin with.

With all that said, there is truley only one way to know for sure, spool em' up and see what happens. Personally, I don't think it'll be any better or worse with your older reels, i'd say give it a try. Make sure and let us know how it goes!!!!!!!!
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[reelworks]

I spooled the 9500ss up with Whiplash just to make a few test casts, as far as the reel and the way it seems to handle it, it looks fine, but the Whiplash is so thin, casting requires that I either wear a glove or tape my forefinger, it's only .012" diameter line, and is like casting piano wire. I did a test on a short piece of 80lb Whiplash, tied off to two #7 swivels, pulling on it with a drag scale, it took 77lbs of force to brake, and the brake was at the knot. So the stuff is strong. I may switch up to a thicker line, maybe Power Pro just to save my fingers. Casting distance with the Whiplash is great, I used a 7' rod and had no problem throwing a 12oz sinker 400 foot acrossed a grass field with a good strong throw. Of course a clam and leader will be a different scenario.
The main reason I asked the question was to see if anyone had had any bad experience with braid on the older reels, the tackle shops around here that gave me the warning do not do much surf or salt water tackle.
As far as guides, I have replaced all of my guides over the last few years with ones that will handle the braided lines, and have no doubt that I won't have a problem there.
Older dacron line was known for guide damage, like was stated earlier, and since it's a looser weave, it does hold both dirt and salt and will cut ceramic guides. The modern Aluminum Oxide, Zirconium, SiC, and Halide guide materials are so hard that there is no way that an line could create enough heat or friction to do any damage.
I would venture to guess that a good way to check your guides is to see if they are cushioned or uncushioned style guides, those that are uncushioned, (without the black plastic shock ring around the guide ring), they are most likely a good quality of Aluminum Oxide or better. There are also metalic type inner rings made of Titanium, Stainless Steel, and SiC. The only one of them that I would be concerned with is those with Stainless Steel rings, but even those seem to hold up ok with Power Pro line. On the older rods, one solution to stop the guides from grooving was to run carbide or carbaloy guides, these are steel or bronze frame guides with a carbide steel ring, while these can rust if not kept clean, they are harder than stone, (Made of the same material as used to make machine tool cutters). Many rods still use this type of ring at the tip.
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[gdn443]

Welcome to the board reelworks, I have fireline on my light gear for salt water. [ Penn 4000 ] and have found it doesn't groove the guides like spiderwire does. My buddy had a problem with it on his baitcaster, but switched it to 20lb test and no problem after that. Having had good luck with this line in salt and fresh, I'm hard pressed to try anything else.
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[snook.hooker]

Wow - that's a lot of writing in a short time, guys!

I've been using PowerPro for a few years now (fishing only with spinning reels) and am completely sold on it. I used my brothers rod once last summer with mono - it felt like a rubber band, the first time pulling on it.

In the past I've used a lot of walmart $25 combos, also with PP, and never noticed any grooves from the line (but the rod or reel usually broke before I noticed it - no more of those for me!)

My Penn 5500 and Stratic 4000 have 50 lb. and 20 lb. PowerPro, respectively, and I have no inclination to change. I have had a few tangles, but not bothersome or often enough to change. The rods are Redbone Hurricane - no grooves there either.
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[Tarpon4me]

That's some great info on the rod guides Reelworks. I checked out the Fuji Wedsite not too long ago and was wondering how tough those different compounds would be. I've got a rod right now sitting in the back of my wifes truck that I plan on rewrapping one of these days soon. I've already decided to go with a much stouter eye than what would normally be put on the rod. It's a 20-30 pound class rod, like a small inshore casting rod; but the unique part is that it has a gimble butt on it. It's an old Silstar Powertip rod. Those are some awesome rods, it sucks they stopped making that model. I'm going to put some heavy conventional rod eyes on it and use it for a steroid induced light tackle rod. It's going to rock!

Thanks for your inputs Reelworks, i'll see if I can put some of that info to good use in the near future. [cool]
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[Tarpon4me]

OK OK, all this talk about Power Pro and I guess i'm going to have to try it out for myself. [] If it's really that good, where can I get a small spool to give whirl?
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[reelworks]

I have a few of those Pinnacle Coatal Power Tip rods myself, I have the 20-50 pound, and a pair of 15-30lb in conventionals and a 15-30lb spinner, I wouldn't trade them for anything. They are still available, but only as left overs, they pop up from time to time. I always keep an eye out for them. They did make several versions that were all identical other than color and the shape of the foregrip. I like the earlier flat black blank, with dark green wrap version with the three sided foregrip the best, I think that was the original version, the last version was black with red wraps. I do wish that Silstar/Pinnacle would stick with a model line, they keep jumping all over with their product line, they've offered some nice tackle, but it seems that just when they have it right, the drop it and move on to a totally new area. They've been weak on the saltwater end lately. In the last few years, they've made and dropped several items that I wish they would have kept. The Pinnacle VS 20, VS 30, and CR 30 baitcat reels for example. I also have a pair of XZB60 Baitrunner reels that I've used for 4 years now, they are every bit the reel that the Shimano Baitrunner is, infact, they're almost identical. (The later versions do not have the auto release of the bait runner feature).
In fact, I wish they would have stuck with the whole Coastal line, I have quite a few Pinnacle items, both fresh and saltwater, and have never had a problem. I wouldn't trade my VS 30s or CR 30's for anything, I like them better than my Penn 965 Internationals. I actually think the Pinnacle may be a bit tighter feeling.

If yours needs new guides, look at a set of Pac Bay boat rod guides, their pretty tough and take a lot of abuse. Either the BBHG series or BRBHG series. I've used a lot of Pac bay guides over the last few years with absolutely no complaints, they are as good as Fuji if not better, the polish is a bit smoother on the guide itself and the frames resist corrosion better.

My Penn 9500ss is on a Penn Sabre 7' Spinning rod right now, very stout, rated at 20# to 50# test with a gimbla butt and extended foregrip. My intention is to use it for when fishing on a crowded boat, or where ever I need to be able to cast a bit farther and maybe a bit more accurately when there's limited space. It will do double duty on that and on a surf pole from time to time. So I may spool up two spools, one for each situation, Power Pro for the shorter rod and Whiplash for the surf pole and longer casts.

I think I prefer Power Pro of all of the new braided lines, it handles the easiest. But I Whiplash is stronger and ties a stronger knot. It also flys through the guides faster, mostly since it's so much thinner. I have both 65lb and 80 lb Whiplash here, and both measure under .012", there's actually not much difference between the two, it's so slight you have to really compare the two. Power Pro 80lb is more like the diameter of 17lb or 20lb mono. And it is a bit rounder. Whiplash will flatten out if compressed, it's not as tight of a braid. It reminds me of well broken in Fireline when fishing.
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[Tarpon4me]

The Silstar Power Tip I have is the black with Red trim. On the base of it reads "worlds strongest rod." Which the rod is awesome, but I think that is far fetched. I think all manufacturers have along way to go when it comes to comparing to an Ugly Stix, which in my opinion is infact probably the strongest rod ever to have had a reel mounted to it.

I'm actually rewrapping the rod myself. I got some great info on the rod building message board and i'm going to utilize it when the time comes. I've already told the Mod on that board that I was going to take before and after pic's of it and post them on the site. I'll keep you posted on my selection when the time comes.

The hard part is finding the time. I always say i'm going to start the rod, but I never get around to it. I need to pick a day and just go for it.

As for not trading a particular reel for anything, that would be my Abu's. Those Swedes sure can make a reel. [cool]
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[snook.hooker]

T4 - one other thing - I'll never buy another spool of line... Most bait shops will spool your line with just the right amount, at the right tension, for 6 to 9 cents per yard, less than what you'd get it at Walmart for, and they take your old stuff off too!
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[Tarpon4me]

I didn't even think about that! Good idea, i'll just find a local tackle shop and have them spool it up. I'll start with a smaller sized reel, so if i'm disapointed, I won't be out much. Thanks for the advice Snook.hooker!
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[reelworks]

I gave up on having the tackle shop spool my reels, I bought my own spooling station years ago, and found it far cheaper to buy bulk spools. The last time I went to a tackle shop to have Power Pro put on, they charged me $26 for 100 yards of 30lb PP on a 2500 Shimano Stradic. I that's over $ .20 per yard, plus backing. At that rate, I would go broke spooling up one of my larger reels, let alone all of them. I can buy the it retail for less. Besides, I got tired of the tackle shops trying to tell me how I should spool my reels, I had a buddy that took one of his larger surf reels to get spooled with PP, and when we got out to fish, he casted out right down to the mono backing. When I asked how much PP he had them put on, (especially since I told him to go with at least 200yds), he said the shop told him any more than a 125 yds was a waste, he was bait fishing with surf clams on a 12.5' pole with a 6oz sinker, a 125yd cast was nothing.
I ended up stripping that off and putting it on one of his lighter rigs, and spooling his reel with 250 of 50lb PP, at least that way even with a super long cast, there's a good wrap of PP on the spool yet with some run off room.

I bought several weights of Power Pro and keep a few spare spools ready for each of my main reels. I keep 30lb, 50lb, and 65lb, 80lb, and 100lb on hand in bulk spools. I haven't ever come across Whiplash in bulk. I even run Power Pro on my larger conventionals, I usually run about 350 yds over mono backing on the trolling reels, and at least 200yds on my surf reels. I also rotate my line once before replacing it, the spooling station comes in handy for that too. With the cost of line these days, it's too expensive to waste. I have also moved the lesser used rear sections of PP from my larger reels onto smaller reels cutting away the worn top layer and reversing the line. That way I make use of all of the line, and Power Pro doesn't seem to rot or weaken with age, but it does wear and fade after a lot of use. The newer PP is much better than the earlier line.

All fishing line seems to have gone up in price quite a bit, just recently, I'm sure the price of fuel has a lot to do with it. Most has gone up at least 20% lately, with the braided lines going up as much as 35%. Between shipping costs and manufacturing costs rising, I don't think we've seen the end of it yet. The climbing fuel costs are not only affecting those of us with boats, it's running up the cost of fishing all around.
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[Tarpon4me]

Man, you talk about gas prices. The problem I have is the closest body of water to me is about 40 minutes away. The ocean is an Hour and a half away. So not only do I have to fill up thirsty boats, but I have to account for the truck gas too. LOL, it's a crapy situation. It's not so bad on my bass boat, it's only got a 5 gallon tank. But my center console has a 45 gallon tank, I feel it when I have to fill up that sucker. I haven't taken the big boat out this year, i'm still waiting for the water to get warm enough. LOL, before i'd have been out in it anyways, but now I can't afford to waste the gas when i'm not for sure the fish are going to be there. Thankfully, this first trip out for the season won't be too bad, I filled up the boat before the gas got high. I have a feeling i'm going to be doing alot of drift and bottom fishing this year. Trolling is going to be too expensive I believe. []
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[snook.hooker]

$0.20 a yard??? That's robbery![mad] I've never paid more than 9 cents for 50 lb PP. I'd find a new tackle shop!
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[reelworks]

I'm about 30 minutes from the bay and about 45 from the ocean here, I doubt I'll even bother with the boat this year, it's cheaper to go out on a party boat, their usually not to crowded and so far have stayed around $50 per person. The last I checked, it took me about 23 gal. per hour to run the boat, and with 200 gal. on board, a boat trip would be at least $500 for even a short run, not to metion the slip and maintainance. It's just not going to happen with fuel at $3 plus a gallon, and it's higher at the docks, I would guess closer to $4.50 or so. (When it was only $1/gal on the road, the marina was $1.86 , I don't want to even look now.
All of my vehicles are hard on fuel, this summer is going to hurt, no matter how you look at it. Whether in gas in the boat, gas to get to the water, or simply in the cost of everything that it's going to trickle down to.
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[trollboy8]

I have had this same question. Thanks for all the info.
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