Wolf ???

[whitedog]

How do you all feel about the grey wolves that have been reintroduced/planted in upper michigan?

Do you feel they should be controlled by lethal means?

Do you feel they should be hunted by the sale of havest tag to sportsmen/sportswomen?

Do you feel a person should be able to protect his pets and live stock to depredation from wolves?
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[daffy]

[black][size 1]You know what gets me is the years and years and years our ancestors took at trapping and killing off these predatory creatures, only to have them reintroduced, how many kids are going to have to be hurt or eaten before some thing is done. But hey they are going to drain flaming gorge to protect some trash fish down stream, so what do I know. Every creature has it's own niche, and deserves to be there I guess, as much as I do not agree with it. We have the same thing going on here in Wyoming, they reintroduced them in Yellowstone National Park, now there are wolves across the entire state! LBD [/size][/black]
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[davetclown]

I am glad to hear we have a couple back in the neighborhood.

Yes we do need to keep a control on the number of wolves, I also agree we need to keep a control on the number of people.

I do understand the plight of the wolf and feel for them I also understand the plight of the farmer and more so the need to protect our children, Mind you that when the area was first settled not only were there wolves present there were black bear grizzly bear coyote badgers wolverines mountain lions and people like me, (pre European occupation)

Here is what most people don’t realize; these critters running wild seldom came in to the farm. With traps of all sorts set around year round. They died out due to starvation and lack of housing. Michigan was clear cut from the Ohio border to the northern most tip of the up. Any piece of ground that was workable was cleared. All the trees you see around you except for those in thick bogs and swamps and on steep cliffs are re-growth. There are few trees left from before the clear cutting of the 1860’s to the 1920’s. When I was a kid we used to see the stumps from that era, today there are few if no signs left.

Back during the depression president Roosevelt created a work corps called MCC. During those twelve years he was in office, (yep, 12.. this was when term limits were set)

The MCC replanted areas all over the state of Michigan. Many of the old pine forest were planted by this corp. we still have a few standing with in a couple hundred yards of my home here near Detroit.

When I was a kid the woods were no ways near as full as they are now, yes we have fewer woods due to development.

That being said, I would like to share with you a couple tidbits of the feeding habits of the wolf. Yes they do eat deer, Yes the do eat bear, Yes they do eat elk, Yes they do eat moose (note we no longer have a hunt able population of moose in Michigan) Yes they do eat wolverines, Yes they do eat cougars (mountain lions) Yes they do eat badgers. Yes they do eat rabbits squirrels turkeys quail pats ducks geese swans and any other fowl they can catch.

But did you know they would rather eat fish over any other prey? This is true, they will hunt trout and salmon right along side of grizzly and black bare. They even will hunt salmon and trout next to man if man would just leave them be... Scientist have already proven this, It would have been nice if salmon had been reintroduced in the areas where the wolves were released. Would have made a great deal more sense than just turning them loose. You wouldn’t plant a fish in a pond with out creating some kind of structure or suitable habitat. so the why did they with wolves. every thing needs to eat.

My Siberian husky, (the dog closest related to the wolf) would rather have a fish over a hamburger. She is spoilt rotten, you cant feed her any raw meat other than squirrel and fish, every thing else has to be cooked... She loves to go fishing, she can tell you to stay off the ice when it is not safe, she can tell you if there is a fish directly below the ice 25 feet down. (Yes I use here to point out my ice fishing holes every winter) Now you know my ice fishing secret.

once again I say the elk and moose was hunted to extinction in Michigan but the wolf and wolverine and mountain lion were starved out of existence in the state of Michigan. There is some rumor that the mountain lion was reintroduced in to Michigan but officially there is nothing to substantiate this rumor. I would like to think that the state is healing and the cougars found their way back because the area was once again becoming hospitable.

Sorry for the history lesson, but I thought it is important for every one to know the truth of this matter.

You have more to worry about your neighbor’s dog than you do from any wolves. Only under extreme conditions will a wolf come to your door unless invited. so as long as you aint throwing scraps of meet and throwing deceased farm animals in to the fields they will consider the area unfit for hunting. So don’t feed the deer in your front yard and your worries about wolves will be next to nothing....

so I say to you, any thing that eats fish cant be all bad.

I said earlier I feel the plight of the wolf. I today am living under the gun of the wealthy developers. my home is no longer fit for my life style. Here where I was born was farm country and today it is a mass of housing developments. where I once hunted fished and raised a hundred head of chickens freely I can no longer do so. I soon will be starved out of my home for the sake of the really rich.

The wolf is my brother, the wild cat my sister, the great bare my uncle, and the fish is my life’s blood.
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[whitedog]

very intresting read dave, i have done a ton of reading on wolves and have never read any where, wheer they like to eat fish, they must not like the types of salmon and trout we have in the upper, they are comeing in are yards to eat are pets off there chains, my neighbor had over 100 sheep killed by wolves last year and expects to have at least that many killed this yearfrom 1920 to the early 70's befor the bounty was removed from the wolves, the wolves had nothing to eat till after the clear cutting, the old growth timber didnt offer the habitat needed for large herds of deer and moose, are moose herd was all but gone, but they did rebound with some help after the wolves where removed, now that the wolves are back in big numbers, the moose again are dissapearing.

my self I could care less if the wolves ate all the deer moose and what every other wild animals there is, its when they come in my yard just to eat my dog, i say thats the line, I would never harm a protected grey wolf, but should it enter my lawn area of my property, it will not live long should I see it.

A wolf like unlike other wild peditory animals will not run from you, like a bear or coyote etc. a wolf will follow you, they have know fear of you, this behavior is prolly not historicly correct, but do to the large amount of habitated land they have lost the fear of human.

Ive been to the state wolf meetings and its not long till we do have some type of lottery system for harvest tags for the grey wolf, the dnr is saying they do need to be controlled by lethal means, but its up to the fedral goverment to delist them.

the feelings of the people that are liveing with in the high wolf population areas, are of are grand fathers, kill them all, offer bountys, some say the state could make good money selling hunting licences for them and the way I see the feelings of those who dont have to live with the carnage of the modern grey wolf, it makes me sick to talk to one who could love a modern grey wolf, are ecosystem did so well for so long with out wolves, that it will never be able to adapt to the modern wolf.

the wolf no longer hunts or breeds as its ansestors they roam free and breed free, they no longer hunt in packs and there is no longer alfa males and females, they all just breed, its the reason for the population explosion.

well any how davetclown, I am going to spend a lot of time this year on the rivers where the salmon run in heavly wolf populated ares and see if I can get some pictures of wolves feeding on salmon, that was very intresting to hear, I will be asking around and see where the best times of day/night for viewing wolves feeding on fish, if you have any more info on this please give me the links to where i can study up on it, have a great day Y'all.
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[davetclown]

here is one that you will find imposible to beleive but is absolutly true.

the wolf and the killer shark share a common ancestor. No not a water animal but a land walking wolf like creature. About two to three times the size of a wolf.

this eating fish thing is a recent study mostly in the last 5 years so the info hasnt been fully released just yet. the study was done in origon and washington.

I do agree there is something wrong. For a hundred sheep beeing killed on a single farm I would be inclined to be sitting out there with a vidio camera filming the animal killing the sheep. that is about one every three days. so catcing one on film would not be difficult. trapping one in a pen trying to eat a sheep is even easier.

during the time of old groth trees deer was not the primary bovine nor was moose, the moose died off when the army corps of ingeners draind hundreds of millions of acres of swamp. moose may bear young on the high lands but feed primarily on swamp plants.

Elk was the primary bovine that lived across the north amreican contanant. there were more elk then there were buffallo. Elk was the primary food of settlers.

I learned about the elk and white tail deer during that time when I pulled an elk permit and had to sit though a day long class before we could walk out in the woods.

I will see if I can find the study report. I saw the documentary that came out a couple years ago. If you can get a piture of a wolf eating a fish you will accomplish something no one has yet to be able to do.

the wolves eat the heads and stomach of the fish after dragging them off in to the woods.

It is true that a wolf will eat fox and cats and any small dog that resembles in size of a fox. the high pitch barking is a calling card. feeding your pets out side is also a calling card.

I will further agree that if it is a wolf killing the sheep and not the neighbors rotwiler or pit or doberman it is a domesticated wolf that was trained to kill in an unatural setting by man which makes it a semi domesticated animal.

this is also true that wolves realy have no fear of man, over the last hundred thousand years wolves have hunted along side and or behind man cleaning up behind them. that is how they became domesticated in the first place. the dogs we have today are thousands of years of cross and line breading, and some breeds are just recently developed in the last 50-75 years. and breaders are trying to make new breeds all the time.

I have a cyote coming in my yard from time to time. it gives me no problems. My dog is in a kennel when it is not in the house or with me out side. me and the dog have walked up on it in the park across the street. scairing the day lights out of him.

every one who sees my dog asks me if it is a white or grey wolf. so it is easy to see some one confuse a pack of huskies or mallimutes for a pack of wolves.

I had chickens on my farm being killed on a daily bases. I called the pound and they told me it was a fox. I called the dnr and they said if I caught it they would take care of it. "meaning they would destroy it, not release it any where else because once it has a taist for something they will always seek it out no matter where it is released.

one day I did my usual ruteen, then drove a mile down the road and came back though the woods only to find my neighbors dog killing my chickens. I caught the dog, took it to the pound and never had another chicken killing insodent.

I did not for one minute believe it was a fox, for when I find several dead birds not eaten that tells me it is not a wild animal feeding, that is a domesticated killer. only domesticated animals kill for sport. "my opinion" this includes cats.

with a vidio camera or a motion sensor camera showing a sheep in a wolves mouth then there is no longer an argument of what is the culpret. There is no doubt there is a problem animal on your hand and it needs to be delt with.

I will also go further to say it is iresponcible to leave a small pet like a puppy or small breed of dog or a small child un attended under most any situation in most every environment. even down here in the detroit area, Birds have been seen flying away with small dogs and cats. (eagles hawks and owls).

in central park of new york city a red tail hawk has recently developed a taist for small dogs. This is no joke.

our would is a wilderness weather we like it or not. we have to learn to respect it, and as time is proving we will have to re-learn to live with it.

if the sheep were mine and I faced loosing a hundred head a year I could cirtainly see justification in buying a couple three bovia pups and raise them with baby sheep and turn them loose in the feilds to watch over the sheep.

there is one method of preventitive measures you can take but the wife and neighbors may think you are a little strange. this is to go about twenty yards out side the the yard perimiter and personaly water the trees. this dose work, you confuse wolves and other dogs in to thinking there is a predominate animal in the area.

might be a little rough to do around a pen full of sheep, unless you pick up a couple cases of beer...LOL

I promiced you links, here they are.. hope this helps, I have provided both sides of the story....

[#800080]Wolves:: - Hunting[/#800080]
A study of moose kills by wolves on Michigan's Isle Royale found that most were either very young or ... Wolves fish too, eating salmon, arctic grayling, and whitefish. Occasionally, they will eat insects ...

[url "http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.raincoast.org/proj-wolves/wolf-all.php?pageNum_rsWolvesRep=2&&DI=293&IG=9bf32ce7d72a47f4a34dc07ab6c6a750&POS=4&CM=WPU&CE=3&CS=AWP&SR=3"]Wolves - related documents[/url]
Find out about the salmon eating genetically unique rainforest wolves with Dr. ... Rainforest Wolf Project was initiated due to the unique opportunity to study

[url "http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.raincoast.org/publications/news/fishing_with_wolves.htm&&DI=293&IG=9bf32ce7d72a47f4a34dc07ab6c6a750&POS=5&CM=WPU&CE=4&CS=AWP&SR=4"]Fishing with wolves - Oct 2002[/url]
Until late last year scientists didn't know wolves ate salmon. Wolves ... He is conducting his study under the auspices of UVic biology ... so we're able to catch sight of them collecting and eating the ... [url "http://g.msn.com/9SE/1?http://www.raincoast.org/publications/report/2003-annual-report.pdf&&DI=293&IG=9bf32ce7d72a47f4a34dc07ab6c6a750&POS=6&CM=WPU&CE=5&CS=AWP&SR=5"]Tracking Raincoast into 2003[/url]
... Remains of pink salmon left behind by fishing wolves. Salmon ... The fish you’re eating may be “Farmed and ... The project is the first study of coastal mainland wolves and is pioneering the ...

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[whitedog]

you have a few good points dave, its hard to comprehend what happens on a 2000 acre farm less you live around one, with 500 ewes, when they lamb its like a cotton field, wolves now days have become lazy and take a likeing to farm animals, once they eat one sheep or cow/calf they tend to leave the wild animals alone, but as you know its very hard to keep your eye on a large pet like a lab or leave a dog like that in the house all the time when your at work, my self I feel dogs shouldnt be under the same roof as people, I fed all my dogs which i am down on dogs i only have 10 out side, I feel the state should have asked for public input befor they planted/reintroduced them not after the damage is done, but then again i dont know of any one who accused the state/DNR of doing any thing right, the state is working hard at trying to get a hunting season on them and the right for land owners to kill them if they pose a threat to what they own and I am going to spend some time on the river this fall when the salmon run and see if i can see a wolf hunting fish, I would like to se one catch a fish and drag it off into the woods.
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