We are on our second Out Door Servival Chalange

[davetclown]

I am sure every one has heard of the family's drama that was stranded in a snow storm in thier car where the father walked away looking for help only to subcome to the extreem conditions.

now we have a three climbers in oregon in dire need of resque due to the winter storm and one hundred mile an hour winds today.

any one want to discuss either one of these dramas?

there is much to discuss, such as what would you do in situations like these.

What rational would you use to make the disisions.

I dont want to open a debate as to weather or not the father did or did not do the right thing. that is not the issue.

We do know that there was a house sever hundred yards in the opisite direction as the father went. You can not use this in your debate.

we know now that the three climbers on the mountain are huddled in a snow cave. Not much more is known.

So the question is, what do you need to do in order to survive these conditions for 5-7 days.
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[davetclown]

l am going to start on the mountain climbers.

only the discussion here could posibly lead to finding the climbers.

looking at as a think tank.

What we know... [ul] [li]we have 4 climbers.[/li] [li]we have one climber who stayed home[/li] [li]we can asume this climbers are some what skilled to attempt such a climb during winter months.[/li][/ul]
conditions.... [ul] [li]heavey snow[/li] [li]heavey winds[/li] [li]large area to cover[/li][/ul]
time laps.... [ul] [li]7 days[/li] [li]Last heard from 5 days[/li][/ul]
Equipment [ul] [li]back pack[/li] [li]cell phone we can asume it has gps trackability.[/li][/ul]

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I am asuming these guys are skilled in survival as well.

well we know that man has survived by far worse conditions with less amenities for thousands of years. as to weather or not these people have the skills is not know. but lets say for sake of argument they do.

If I were going to build a snow cave asuming they did, If they chose a geographical one finding them should be much easier.
[ul] [li]I would if I were going to build a snow cave I would want to do it in a place where I would have shelter from winds and snow and close to fuel for a fire. [/li] [li]this would make finding me more difficult but increase my chances of sruvival untill the storm passes.[/li] [li]We know that leantoos can provide tremendous amount of shelter from wind and snow. can be set up in a short amount of time in an alpine environment with basic survival tools. "hatchet" this will also be your sorse of fuel as well.[/li] [li]keeping your fire going is important. it provides heat, and on a clear day or short break in the weather will signle your location.[/li][/ul]
I have to stop here for the moment, Please continue at this point or any other points you think are nessisary to survive this front.
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[DanielJRioux]

I will talk about the guy leaving his car and trying to find help. You should never leave your vehicle because it does offer you some protection from the elements and with four people in the car a little warmth if you cuddle up. He should have not even been in the snow with what he was wearing, a light shirt, sneakers, and blue jeans. Always keep extra clothes and some food, I prefer MRE's with you when you get into a situation like he and his family was in.
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[davetclown]

Same rule applies on the side of a mountain or any situation where cold is a factor. the last thing you want to do is seperate. that is the worst thing you can do.

Never leave an injured person behind by him self. What ever first aid you can provide is better than none at all.

When the storm lifts in a couple days or a week you can then hobble out to gether. It is easier for two people to assist one injured person down after the storm has lets up than it is to return and find some one in in a storm.

If you must move then move together for short periods of time and reconstruct shelter at least a couple hours before night fall. this will give you the oppertunity to build a fire, melt snow for water.

You can eat snow a little bit at a time. this will help keep you hydrated and help to maintain body tempreture. Yes, cold drinks actualy increases body temps and hot drinks cool body temps.

Markers are good but during a storm become invisible. even gps coordnants can be inacurate due to masive over cover and tree cover.

Experienced Climbers will map their aproach to the sumit for several reasons. the primary one is for search and rescue.
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[davetclown]

as we suspected, and our hopes are dashed.

a news report at 6pm eastern time the news reproted finding a couple cave holes in the area of the cell phone ping. and by the end of the braudcast 5 minuts to 7 the news said they found equipment in one cave but did not know if it belonged to this set of climbers.

in the other cave they found the body of the person sending the last cellphone ping.

this confirmed that the other two did seperate,

this leads me to beleive that tho these three men may have been skilled climbers, they lacked the basic skills of servival. this drasticaly diminshes the chances of finding the other two alive.


If this snow cave is an actual cave in the mountain;

I think a memorial would be in order for the person left behind. A servival box perminently placed in the cave with info about the person who pass here along with all the nessisary equipment to survive for a couple weeks. a transmiter that automaticaly sends out a becon once the protective case is opened. along with instructions on what to do incase they are stranded.

I doubt if they have st bernards in oregon for search and rescue. mostly because of low tec and cost.
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[Fishhound]

[black][size 3]With all due respect to that man's family, and in direct contradiction to what the uninformed media presented, that man made a host of mistakes. As a matter of fact, from the story I have read thus far, he did nothing right. I can't even think of where to start.[/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]First off, he was completely unprepared for anything - no provisions, no equipment, no maps, and no knowledge of what to do in an emergency, and apparently, could not recognize the full situation that he had placed himself and his family in. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Secondly, he made the mistake of taking an unfamiliar road in a potentially unforgiving area of which he had absolutely no knowedge and was unprepared to go there. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]And lastly(not really but bandwidth prevents a detailed analysis because there are so many things he did wrong) he did not take short duration hikes to orient himself and discover the possible surrounding avenues of self aid - instead, all we really know is that he took off, got disoriented, lost, died, and left his family to die as well. Well meaning intentions really have little meaning when the outcome is as it turned out. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]What more could be said would take volumes. It was a tragidy that in my opinion, was almost entirely avoidable. [/size][/black]
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[Fishhound]

[black][size 3]I would have to agree on your take on the situation with the climbers, but here are some of my observations.[/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Sometimes it is unavoidable to have to separate. But, that is a last resort, and one not taken lightly. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]It was a good thing to have a cell phone, but to rely on that as a means of rescue is an invitation to not survive. Especially to the exclusion of real preparation.[/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Knowing how most "self proclaimed" experienced outdoors people prepare for, act, and react to emergency situations, I am not surprised at all by what will undoubtedly be the outcome of this tragic situation that we will most likely read about in the near future. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Every year, "self described" experienced outdoors people place themselves in situations like this and do not survive - sometimes, they perish within a stone's throw of self rescue because they didn't have the where-with-all, common sense, or real experience to recogize it.[/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Those climbers were traveling light in adverse conditions - that should be the first hint that they were probably pretty clueless, and in reality, inexperienced. From the story thus far, it sounds like they were just thrill seekers that got in over their heads. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Traveling light, in the many of "weekend warrior's" mind set, probably means that they had no way to melt snow and may not even had a method to start a fire nor the knowledge and experience to do so when there is little or nothing that looks dry enough for your average boy scout to burn. They probably only had a couple of power bars each for sustenance. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]It is also likely that they learned somewhere that a person can not eat snow to rehydrate. Nothing could be further from the truth. Under some circumstances, it is advisable to not eat snow. But certainly, if the warmth requirements were met, then, it would be a perfectly acceptable method to get rehydrated. That is why many animals do it all the time - we too are animals, and have the exact same necessities in regards to water. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]When they carry a cell phone for "just in case" that usually means that the electronic device is intended to be their sole method of rescue and that it is adaquat to replace good old fashioned common sense, real knowledge and/or experience. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]They may have had some limited climbing experience, but as you pointed out, they definitely did not have the knowledge they thought they possesed, nor the outdoor experience they seem to have claimed and apparently, gambled their lives on that obviously inaccurate assumption, prior to this event. [/size][/black]
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[black][size 3]Not knowing the full story as of yet(and we may never know the details), all I can really say at this point, is that it is a very situation for the families of those climbers that looks like it could have been avoided by a little more preparation. [/size][/black]
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[davetclown]

since my last post more info has come to light.

the caves was one thay they constructed them selves.

now things have become bleeker for the two climbers. the sherif has come up with the posibility that the other two climbers may have walked off a steep end.

this report came out an hour ago.

as a hunter, I have found in nature that during major storms holeing up is what all animals do to servive. even deer elk and buffalo huddle togther and stay put to ride out the storm. I have walked up on them litterly not moving for any thing including me.

even in known terrain people get lost and die. this happened in my neighbor hood just a couple winters ago. my neighbor took a short cut through a park half mile wide one mile long, roads on three sides 8 foot chain link fence on the other. A 15 minute hike on a good day, but the one night on his little hike he has taken hundreds of times from his girl friends house to his he got lost, had no protective clothing from the eliments.

the strom lasted for 6 hours with white out condtions compounded by dark, my other nieghbor found him the following morning on his morning hike though the woods. Total snow fall was only 10 inches.

now you take something with white out conditions like they had up on the mountain compounded with unknown terrain. the thought of splitting up leads me to beleive you are absolutley right in that these men were nothing but weekend wariors.

I meaning no disrespect to the climbers and families, It is a tragity, My intentions are that it is my hopes some one else who stumbles across this topic takes to heart the seriousness of the situation, long before ever setting out.

When I was reading your post about the man who left his family in the car, the same thought prossess aplied to the men on the mountain. No pre planning, no letting others know which path they took, no provisions other than they needed for a couple hour hike. No weather band radio, no using the phone to check weather forcast. no looking at long range weather forcast.

yes it is true we get hammered all the time by storms that are unprodicted. but we usualy know when the conditions are favorable for such storms by looking at long range forcast.

I emagine they did not even have a flair gun, Granted that would have been of little use while the storm was in full force.

I wondered if they had heat packs, simply placing one of those in the chest area of your cloathing not next to the skin even for an hour at a time between several people can make all the differance between servival of a cold night.

there is cirtainly a big differance between a hiker, rock climber and a mountain climber.

I remember grandpa telling me as we get smarter we get dumber. (as a poeple) this was 30 years ago, the more tecnology to our disposal leads us to beleive that is all we need to sruvive in this world.

Tecnology is only a convieniance, can supliment in search and rescue efforts. I agree that is no substitute for planing, prepairing, and exicuting. Failure in any one of these three things can lead to dire results.

for any one wanting to take up mountain climbing I realy suggest they watch the climb of mount everest. It dosnt give all the answers to what you need but it dose tell you that with all the skill of experienced climbers, all the supplies in the world and technology of todays sience at your disposal, people die there almost every other year making that climb, they travel in large groups, few if any make it to the top if any each year.

those who die there are never retreived, unless they die in camp. atempting to retreive a body off the steep incline is far to dangerous for any one to attempt so the bodies remain as a monument to future climbers in that respect is not only nessisary but is demanded of every one making the chalanges against mountain and nature.
[black][size 4][url "http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/?GT1=8816"]Family identifies climber killed on Mount Hood[/url][/size][/black] [black][size 3][url "http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16262193/?GT1=8816"]Sheriff says 2 other climbers may have fallen on steep slope[/url][/size][/black]
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