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[cool][#0000ff]I completely agree with you. There is no single button to push that will automatically take Utah Lake back a hundred years into the past. There are many issues to address simultaneously. Some are more doable than others.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I know you enjoy a bit of verbal repartee and you like to stir the pot. [b][#0000ff]Sorry to spoil your fun but [/#0000ff]I will not argue with you one lick on this issue. You are smack spang on target.[/#0000ff][/b]
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[#0000ff]However, what did you mean by " [#000000][size 1]Tubedude, you are looking at this issue from a very schewed vantage point[/size][/#000000]"? Did you mean screwed or skewed? Either one probably fits.[/#0000ff]
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Ya gotta love natural selection and all the plans of mice and ,,,,,,, men.. But with all the state provides us at no cost certainly we can afford to toss them a bone where the "suckers" are concerned, right? lol!
Oh lets face it ol' buddy. With each suckeret they toss to the waters they only go to provide more feasty for your beasties. And in turn, bigger, better feasties for you. [  ]
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[cool][#0000ff]Right you are...as usual. You have a keen mind and great perception. Now if you were only a good fisherman, you would be (almost) perfect.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Ya know, them DWR guys are kinda testy when you show up asking for a couple of buckets of those sucker minnows when they plant 'em. I figgered that I might as well feed 'em to the walleyes and catfish as to let them have all the fun. At least the ones I plant will have hooks in them to catch some of the culprits that eat 'em.[/#0000ff]
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[reply][cool][]I know you enjoy a bit of verbal repartee and you like to stir the pot.
]However, what did you mean by " [/b][#000000][size 1]Tubedude, you are looking at this issue from a very schewed vantage point[/size][/#000000]"? Did you mean screwed or skewed? Either one probably fits.[/#0000ff]
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1) not trying to stir the pot...this is something I really believe in--the restoration project is a good thing and very beneficial to sport fishermen. We should be supportive of the program and not try to fight it.
2) actually, I meant "schemed"...I guess a bit of dyslexia caught up to me. It seems that you are against the recovery plan because of the generous bag limits on predators...I believe this is short sighted and "skewed" or "screwed". I believe that recovery of the june suckers would benefit the predators by allowing them more space and better habitat to thrive in. I also believe the recovery plan could help other species including waterfowl.
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[cool][#0000ff]4-10...errrrr 10-4.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Over and out.[/#0000ff]
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I[font "Arial"][red][size 3] think I read sometime back of the DWR working with elementary school kids in planting june suckers in Red Butte Reservior as a means to build a bigger and stronger population for further development at Utah Lake. Also give the kids some hands on education on conservation.[/size][/red][/font]
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What improvements have been made to improve the habitat in Utah Lake? I came from Kentucky about five years ago and was surprized by the lack of cover; natural or manmade in Utah Lake. Redthin shad was the primary forage fish and they didn't eat anything but alge. All lakes supported large numbers of LGM Bass, Crappie, sunfish, Fathead cats, channels, and other warm weather species. With the shad everything had plenty to eat. So my opinion is give them other forage on their menus and they want eat the June suckerettes. The answer is better habititat and better forage! Raise suckers in hatcheries or ponds and work to improve Utah Lake by dredging and adding structure.
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[cool][#0000ff]Utah Lake is not a good lake for many species...including threadfin shad. They cannot live in water colder than about 50 to 55, and they need deep water to winter in. Utah Lake does not have deep water and it freezes. No good for threadfin.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There are gizzard shad in Willard Bay Reservoir, to the north. Not sure if they have been tried or considered for Utah Lake. I do know that DWR has tried to stock a steady procession of different kinds of minnows and forage species over the years. No matter how many bajillions they dump in, they dissappear and never establish a population. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There are some forms of aquatic vegetation in Utah Lake, and several kinds of reeds and shoreline brush that grow up when the lake is full. Unfortunately, Utah is a desert state and the water from Utah Lake is used by farmers for irrigation. During extended drought periods the lake almost goes dry.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]So, your ideas are sound, but just not workable in Utah Lake, for whatever reason.[/#0000ff]
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Because of the ESA considerations, there won't be any new species introduced into Utah lake. And especially not gizzard shad. I don't know how many of you remember what then fisheries chief Tom Pettingill said about gizzard shad. To paraphrase: "If anyone puts gizzard shad in Utah lake or Yuba reservoir the experiment of wipers in Willard bay will be terminated. There will be an immediate and complete eradication of wipers and gizzard shad from Willard bay. Gizzard shad were introduced into Willard as forage for the wipers, and we don't want them in any other waters."
I don't remember the exact results of the study, but they determined that the gizzard shad would eat the same things as the June sucker, and out compete them. They won't coexist.
I like your idea of pumping Utah lake full of Great Salt Lake water. That would kill every living fish in there. Then they could start fresh, without carp.
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WOW....I was just talking about the white bass.....LOL....
Pat you make a great argument,but I tend to agree with the june sucker program to a point.It can help the lake in the long run only if the FEDS stay with it.IF they pull out and forget about the june sucker then the lake stays the way it is.It would be nice to have the lake cleaned up deepend in areas with added structure and developments for public uses it would bring in revenue to help and manage the lake,but thats a long ways off.I would rather see somthing done instead of nothing to improve the fishery down there.[sly]
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I love this site!!!! This is awesome.
Does anybody know why they "must" bring back the June sucker in U.L? Why not another lake/reservoir? I understand that U.L is their indigenous habitat, but does that mean that they "have" to bring them back to U.L?
Here is another wacky idea. What if we just dumped all sorts of spices into the lake, hope that the tastes infuse themselves to the carp and then we'll all be standing in line to bag a few. I'm voting for Rosemary and Thyme.
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[cool][#0000ff]After the little "interchange" with W & B, I hope you guys can see through me. Like most folks, I can be selfish. I want everything neat and clean and set up the way I want it. Too late. I'm married.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Seriously, in a perfect world (Utah Lake) we would have plenty of suckers and also plenty of predators (for fishing), all in good balance. But, as we are all too painfully aware, Mr. Buglemouth throws everything out of whack. That is an obstacle that only the most optimistic angler could ever expect to just "go away". [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Therein lies my frustration. I DO NOT object to trying to restore June suckers in Utah Lake, or anywhere else they can survive until Armageddon. I DO object to watching good money being thrown after bad...repeating the same fruitless exercises with the same results...NO MORE SUCKERS. I think there is a saying that "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results."...or something like that.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]Man, I am all about cleaning up Utah Lake and putting things back into balance...for all WORTHWHILE species. We might want to rethink a couple of others, besides the carp.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]There is one thing that makes me chuckle though. That is the "urban legend" that Utah Lake was once a pristine alpine lake, surrounded by pine trees and full of 20-40 pound cutts. Balderdash. Utah Lake has always been a shallow desert pond. In the past there were Bonneville cutts, left over from the great evaporation, and there were also native chubs and suckers to feed the cutts. That much is documented, as is the wholesale cleanout of the cutts and many of the big suckers by the early pioneers, for food. [/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]I have heard "firsthand" accounts of someone seeing pictures of huge Utah Lake cutts stacked in a wagon. Never happened. There are pictures like that around, but they are of the Lahontan cutts that were found in Pyramid Lake and the Truckee River in Nevada. World record was 40 pounds and they were supposedly pitchforked up to 60 pounds.[/#0000ff]
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Well... I don't know about all that Sucker and Restoration stuff- but I do know that when I see those little fellers takin' wheel borrow after wheel borrow of bass off the lake to the trunk of their Hyundai- I get a little hot under my waders...
Moderation in all things...PB
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[cool][#0000ff]Either don't watch...or breathe through your nose and keep fishing.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]As we have discussed, until there are limits applied to white bass, the harvest will continue. Not right, but also legal.[/#0000ff]
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then some dummy will illegally transplant another carp, and the cycle will continue...
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Amen to that!
Moderation, folks...
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You are actually quoting Einstein TD. He said "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
That Einstein guy, he had a way with common sense.
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I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I see the june sucker problem similar to building a dam. You simply cannot do it only half-way. Lots of money is being thrown at the june sucker and what do we have to show for it? We should either throw enough money at it to do it right and get the job done - or give up and move on.
I believe we have done a lot to restore the sucker breeding grounds and now the problem is the carp. As I understand, the carp dig through the mud, uprooting nearly all the plants. I have a planted aquarium and know from first hand experience that having no plants causes lots of algae and a big mess. The mud stirred up by the carp also releases a lot of phosphates back in to the water which also increases the algae.
With no plants the young suckers have no place to hide and most will get eaten. So something needs to be done about the carp.
The above info is meant to be serious, but the following is not.[ ][ ]
Here is my solution to the carp:
Nothing happens unless there is money making it happen so we somehow need to manipulate the mind of the population to put the money behind removing the carp. If consumers are willing to pay decent money for carp, commercial fishermen will find better ways to harvest the carp.
If we put our minds together I'm sure that we can think of a rumor that will get the human suckers to pay top dollar for carp. Food or feritilzer is not a strong enough rumor. We need something stronger something along the lines of "snake oil." Here are a few ideas of rumors we could start about carp:
1. A unique chemical made in the pancreous of the carp cures many forms of cancer!
2. A stew made from the fins of carp will reduce the signs of aging by 45%.
3. Michael Jordan (or some other celebrity) thinks its cool to eat carp.
It's late and I'm not feeling very creative, but if we put our heads together, I'm sure that we could come up with a good rumor that will put the hurt on the carp population. What are your ideas?
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[cool][#0000ff]We have been thinking along the same lines. Unfortunately, with the recent bad publicity about the PCB residuals in carp, selling them for mass consumption is going to be a tough task. Here are some alternatives:[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]1. Set up a Utah based neutraceutical company to form a multilevel marketing program to sell carp byproducts. These can be promoted for skin care, weight loss, male potency enhancement, female breast enlargement, hair restoration, memory improvement, increase reading skills and all the other things typically touted by such products.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]2. Sell all that stuff on late night infomercials...with a ten year free supply.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]3. Promote the "Carry a Carp" program. Make it a law that carrying carp in the front seat of your car entitles you to drive in the HOV lanes on the freeways. The only restriction is that the carp be either alive or freshly dead. That way people would have to constantly be acquiring more carp. Also makes it easier on the driver.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]4. Use reverse psychology on poachers and fish harvesters. Make it illegal to catch more than 100 carp, or to have carp in your freezer. Those guys will immediately go out and catch a few thousand for the freezer, just to show that they can get around the law.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]5. Have Martha Stewart write a book on 1000 handy household things you can make from carp...or 1000 festive holiday decorations you can make from carp scales, etc.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]6. Convince President Bush that Utah Lake carp are WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction). He will then load bombers full of them and drop them on our current enemies. Then again, that might not be good. They would probably eat them and continue the war to keep up their supply. The other potential downside would be that the insurgents would load carp into their roadside bombs. Exploding carp guts would really be bad news for the coalition troops who get bombed.[/#0000ff]
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[#0000ff]EEEEEEEEEEEEE NUFFFFF[/#0000ff]
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Interesting dialogue you guys have going on there. It is starkly evident that womanandbobber has quite a bit of insight into conflict resolution and negotiation modes of rhetorical communication. You articulate a very compelling advocacy of the benefits of the utah lake recovery program. Yes, looking at the "big picture" is very crucial. Habitat issues are very problematic. Your holistic view is very systems theory oriented....it seems to me. Interesting that you are insightful like that.
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