Posts: 1,395
Threads: 17
Joined: Sep 2003
Reputation:
9
Talk about dumb conspiracy theories--the Game and Fish departments have no intentions of killing the lake trout in Flaming Gorge and making it a safe haven for cutts.
Now, if you were talking about Yellowstone Lake, that might be a different story. But, there are no intentions of making Flaming Gorge a native cutthroat fishery...
In fact, the cutts stocked in the Green River are fine spotted snake river cutts and yellowstone cutts...the native fish for that region would be colorado river cutts.
Again, you guys should be much more worried about burbot than cutts...they will really hurt the lake trout fishery.
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
I am not sitting here dreaming this stuff up man. There is no conspriacy theory involved. The Wyoming game and Fish has said many times that Lake Trout in the Gorge was a mistake, and they wish the could get them out. Of course non of this is not of record it has come from the mouths of wardens and biologist that many of us run into an a daily basis. It will never happen though because Macks are the main attraction to the Gorge with kokes being second. All I am trying to get across is that the Game and Fish does not always tell the truth to us and most of what they say should be taken with caution. I have seen personally as many other Wyoming guys have also these guys killed 45 miles of one of the states best brookie fisheries so that when they replanted the cutts they would not have any competition (this is documented stuff also). The G&F might not have specific intentions to kill the Macks but they are definately not doing anything to promote the Trophy fishery potential that there is either. This same converstion is going on at the Wyo Board, and like I have said there I have nothing against cutts I actually think they are a cool fish, and they are a valuable resource to our fisheries. What I don't like is that the G&F will kill other predatorial fish to promote their survival.
As for Burbot where have you got the impression that I am not extremely concerned about them being there, because I am. Right now the only competition is from Lake Trout they have been eating them on a regular basis. Now if you want to get into conspiracy theories, where did the burgot come from? Was it planted by a couple of unkowing fisherman or was it done intentionally by some guys. Who knows but there is alot of guys (not Myself) that will swear that they were planted by the G&F because they knew what the potential was to harm the fishery of the Gorge and in turn what it would do to the Macks. Once again I don't believe this but I do know one thing Burbot have been in the Gorge alot longer than we realize. We didn't get to the numbers and the sizes of the burbot we have in just the last couple of years. In my opinion they have been around for at least 8-10 years and it has only been the last couple of years when jigging for Macks became popular that people started noticing how prominate the burbot were.
In my opinion this is some good discussion from both sides and I appreciate it. As long as personal attacks stay out of this kind of stuff these kind of discussions can turn into very informative discussions for all that post and read.
Oh and by the way just for the record it might not sound like it but I am a very pro G&F guy. In Wyoming they do a very excellent jog with many things but like any agency they mess up alot also.
W&B if you have any info on the stocking of Snake River cuts in the Green or it tribs I would be interseted in that. To my knowledge the G&F is very anal about putting native species in native waters. I thought only Colorado's went into waters that feed the Colorado, Snake's only went into waters and tribs that fed into the Snake river, Bonnevilles into waters that went into Bear Lake, and Yellowstones in waters and tribs that lead into the the yellowstone river.
Later
Wyobraz
[signature]
Posts: 2,284
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2006
Reputation:
0
The real  thing is politics play a big role in any G&F decision, and many of those guys could care less what happens to allot of outdoor adventure...i.e. hunting and fishing. All they see is the $$'s which is usually a shame.
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
I agree 100%. I don't know if you Utah guys have ever paid attention to what the Wyo Game and fish promotes nation wide to fisherman. It is not the Lake Trout of the Gorge or the nice browns of the Green. It is there precious CuttSlam program. This is how they are justifying killing many fisheries throughout the state by trying to bring in money to the state from people coming to visit to try and acheive this goal.
It is not a bad goal I would like to do it myself someday I am only missing the Yellowstone Cut myself.
Here is a link if you guys are interested.
[url "http://gf.state.wy.us/services/customers/cuttslam/index.asp"]http://gf.state.wy.us/services/customers/cuttslam/index.asp[/url]
[signature]
Posts: 2,284
Threads: 0
Joined: Aug 2006
Reputation:
0
I have not followed much on the Wyo side, but they do that kind of stuff down here also. One of the biggest if giving my covited late season elk tags to the outdoor retailer show and cutting them from everybody else.
[signature]
Posts: 3,071
Threads: 19
Joined: Jul 2003
Reputation:
11
Wyobraz -- LaBarge is a native cutthroat stream. The rennovation was done to remove non-native invasive species (brook trout). How anyone can look at that as a conspiracy is crazy. It's no different the the UDWR renovating Boulder Mountain Lakes of brook trout for native cutthroat reintroduction, or Sixth Water, or any number of other native species reintroduction projects.
I wouldn't doubt for a second that WG&F people have said Lake Trout were a mistake in FG, and that they should have never put them in there. How does that translate into killing them all off and making it a safe-haven for cutthroat? Just because it was a mistake, and they wish they weren't there, doesn't mean that they still don't manage for them.
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
PBH, I never said it was a conspiracy how did you guys get that out of my comments? I just said I didn't agree with completely killing the fishery to promote 100% native fish waters.
As for the Gorge we all know it could never be a Cutthroat safe haven, there is to many other predatorial fish than the Lake Trout. You are right the G&F does manage the Lake Trout, but I think they could do a better job and make it one of the worlds best Trophy waters. Don't get me wrong it is pretty good right now, but there is alot of potential that is not being tapped into.
Wyobraz
[signature]
Posts: 45
Threads: 0
Joined: Sep 2006
Reputation:
0
I am guessing that you caught that one somewhere around "Blue Cliff Bend" ???
I hate the fact that you're getting so good with photoshop...
Nice fish !!!
What did you estimate his weight at ?
[signature]
Posts: 2,933
Threads: 0
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
0
THE CHOPPING SUCKS. BUT IT GETS TO HAPPEN TO PROTECT THE FISH. AND PRESSERVE THE WAY OF LIFE THE LOCALS DESERVE. HE COULD THROWN IN SOME BOGUS BACKGROUNDS TO SEND ALL THE COPY CATS ON A GOOSE CHASE. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MY CHOICE IF IT WERE ME. JUST BEING TRUTHFULL. PAY THE DUES .
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
PBH check out this link [url "http://gf.state.wy.us/fish/fishing/stats/native.asp"]http://gf.state.wy.us/fish/fishing/stats/native.asp[/url]
It is the listing for the native fish for the state of Wyoming. You will see that the only trout in the whole state that is native is the Cutthroat. So if we want to get into conspiracies if the G&F has an agenda to kill off certain waters to promote 100% Native fish, what would make them stop at certain waters and try to do every water in the state. This would never happen but it is a thought. Oh by the way they kill more than brookies when they kill these waters they kill many browns, bows, and small macks, all for one species of fish, that is something I have a hard time understanding.
Even though the Gorge is in both Wyo and Utah what Wyoming does with its fisheries has the biggest impact on what happens with the Gorge Fishery. That is my whole point to my conversation. What we do in our state someday could dramatically effect the Gorge even on the Utah side.
Wyobraz
[signature]
Posts: 549
Threads: 1
Joined: Jun 2003
Reputation:
0
There is another reason why the cutthroats are being promoted so heavily by the Fish and Game departments. The native cutthroats were getting close to extinction. So close that the Feds were considering putting them on the endangered species list. Now that could be a problem for everybody. That could mean lots of restrictions for fishermen and would really tie the hands of the fisheries managers. In Utah the DWR took a proactive approach to get more of the cutthroats out there so that they could do it their way, in the best interest of local fisherman, rather than in a way dictacted by the feds, which may not be good for us who fish. While a few streams may be 'lost' to the cutthroats, others will be saved from the handcuffs imposed by threatened species regulations. Just something to consider before we go off declaring the intentions of others...
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
Good point it is greatly appreciated! But in Wyo and I aplologize I don't know much about fishing in Utah other than the north slope of the Uintas, if the G&F were so worried about cutthroat extinction why do they even have a creel limit on them? If there was ever a case for 100% catch and release that should be one. But instead Wyoming has killed waters for the cuts and you can keep them in most waters now days but with a slot limit of course.
Wybraz
[signature]
Posts: 213
Threads: 0
Joined: Jan 2006
Reputation:
0
that is an excellent point. If the feds get involved then we all lose. I'm sure that the f&g were just trying to find the best habitat possible for the cuts and it's too bad that it just happened to be such a good brookie stream that was targeted.
[signature]
Posts: 3,071
Threads: 19
Joined: Jul 2003
Reputation:
11
Wyobraz -- you need to understand that the cutthroat in LaBarge were native TO Labarge. That is one of the criteria used when determining what waters to renovate. Historic range. When considering native species and the Endangered Species Act, the WG&F cannot simple throw a bunch of native cutts in an area non-indigenous to that species. They need to put those fish back in their native waters and establish a (hopefully) self-sustaining population. This cannot be done in waters with brown trout, rainbow trout, or brook trout. Hybridization as well as competition would result in failure. In the end, fishermen lose.
As was pointed out previously, it is much more to the benefit of local fishermen to have the State take a proactive stance and renovate these fisheries. If they don't, the Feds come in and instead of merely setting LaBarge Creek aside as a native cutthroat fishery, they poison the whole system (Green River included) and put them as cutthroat waters -- closed to fishing!
The reason that Wyoming still has a creel limit on Cutthroat is because they are re-establishing them to their historic ranges. They are proactively keeping them off the endangered species list, and thus keeping them available for you and I to fish for, and keep if we choose.
http://gf.state.wy.us/services/news/pres...0902_4.asp
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
PBH, trust me I do understand this. The cutthroat is the ONLY native trout to the entire state of Wyoming just not Labarge Creek. I have spent 200 plus days a year for the last 32 years fishing these waters we are talking about in Wyoming. One thing I have noticed in these waters is that the cutthroat has not only come to low numbers from predidation, but it also was extremely overharvested in the 80's and early 90's. This has allowed all other species to become dominant in these waters.
There is still high mountain waters around here that do not get fished hardly at all because people don't want to put in the effort in to get to them that still have equal numbers of cuts, brooks, and browns without intervention of the Game and Fish. I would be more than willing to take you to these waters someday I think you might be impressed. I do understand your point and I appreciate the discussion. I do think the Game and Fish would have a hard time in finding many people that agree with their philosophy though, at least in the areas that are affected by these management ideas.
Wyoming is most likely doing the only thing they can by being proactive and killing waters and restocking, I won't deny that, but it doesn't mean I have to agree. We got his way by mismanaging the waters many years ago. I also will never be convinced that killing waters to plant fish and then allow a creel limit on those species shortly after is a good thing. I see no difference between killing a fish by keeping it or letting it be prey to another species. Both ways will take fish away from the natural reproduction of the species, and if a species is as close to endangerment as the Cuts are I would want more fish reproducing.
One thing about Wyoming is they seem to manage everything to extremes, and have a hard time finding a happy medium. But this is not always their fault. One thing I hate about living in Wyoming is we have some of the best hunting and fishing areas in the country and at times we have no control of our own resources. Just look at the Wolf reintroduction and the explosion of the Grizzly population both endangered species.
Good conversation PBH it's been enjoyable.
Wyobraz
[signature]
Posts: 2,042
Threads: 5
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
[reply]
I am guessing that you caught that one somewhere around "Blue Cliff Bend" ???
I hate the fact that you're getting so good with photoshop...
Nice fish !!!
What did you estimate his weight at ? _________________________________________________ Danny: That Blue Cliff Bend has been red hot lately! However, with what has already started going on up here this year, I may either have to put in different (fake) backgrounds, or just quit posting any pictures on my website or anywhere else. But today, instead of every MFker and their brother going to my latest background spots, the SOB's followed me all over the lake for the entire morning. I'd move a mile or two to where there was nobody, and be surrounded in 15 minutes. This happened several times. I'd rather have the copy-cat low-life's follow my pictures instead of following me, so I guess the joke's on me. Maybe Blue Cliff Bend wasn't such a good idea after all, but I like the name! By the way, fishing sucks here now, and will for the rest of the season. Yesterday was the last good day. The bite should begin again around Christmas!
[signature]
Posts: 549
Threads: 1
Joined: Jun 2003
Reputation:
0
[reply]
... if the G&F were so worried about cutthroat extinction why do they even have a creel limit on them? If there was ever a case for 100% catch and release that should be one. ...
It is probably to prevent hybridization. Catch and release would thin out the other fish and help things out, but could not prevent hybridization all together.
One another point related to Flaming Gorge, I can agree with you that some regs are goofy. For example, in Utah (I know nothing of Wyoming regs) if you catch a burbot in Flaming Gorgeyou must kill it immediately. The reason? They don't want the burbot in there. But then they add a crazy regulation like a limit of 20 (I think it's 20) on them. Now think about it. If you don't want the burbot in there, wouldn't it make more sense to ENCOURAGE the successful burbot catchers to catch and kill all they can? Why the limit on burbot at all? They have done the same thing on other waters with other species too? I dont get that logic at all.
Anyway, I think that for the most part the F&G's motives are pure, and often we just aren't aware of all the whys.
[signature]
Posts: 2,042
Threads: 5
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
As for the rest of the comments made on this post, and many are very good, I'm not touching the cutthroat thing, as I don't see that as a Gorge issue. It's not a cutthroat lake.
As for the burbot, I'll go on record, (probably the ONLY PERSON), as saying that I'm not at all worried about the burbot. I see them as an additional food source for the lake trout, and the only fish in the Gorge that is decent table fare by my own personal standards. So, I now have a food source, and the lakers have another one also.
I've fished many lakes in the far north with burbot and giant lake trout. Maybe the comparison isn't sound, but until I see a noticable number of skinny lake trout that have reached maturity, I'm not concerned. As I started this post by saying, they have plenty to eat at this time, and have had for the past two decades.
I also don't advocate putting chubs or some other fish in here from some other reservoir. That's how diseases and other harmful organisms are spread.
If I were in charge, we'd stock the hell out of rainbows and kokanee, make it illegal to kill any lake trout over 28 inches, and watch the lakers grow to enormous sizes in the next two decades. That's it. Very simple.
And as to the origin of the Burbot, they came down the Green River drainage from up around Big Sandy. How they originally got in there is still being debated. Some say Wyo. did it, some say bucket biologists. That's the story I've heard repeatedly, including from a WGF biologist who I respect and admire.
[signature]
Posts: 1,039
Threads: 0
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
Sorry Jim, I was just trying to give an example of why the Game and Fish does not want predatory fish of any species other than Cuts in the tribs that feed the Gorge and things got turned around a little. It was some decent discussion though just a little off topic ]
Wyobraz
[signature]
Posts: 2,042
Threads: 5
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation:
0
Don't be sorry! I think its good, lively debate, and I'm all for that! I'm not one of those little softies who gets all bent out of shape when someone supposedly "hijacks" a thread. In my opinion, there's no such thing. That's what discussion is all about. It leads to further discussion. Whoever decided that a thread had to stay on a certain topic is an idiot, and afraid of people's opinions and thoughts.
I assume your doctors visit went as planned and there were no complications or surprises? Get well so you can get out and catch a lake trout or two before the fish-killers dwindle 'em down some more.
[signature]
|
