Back cast?

[iliketofish]

So, I realize that without seing somebody cast it is hard to give advice, but I'll throw this out there anyway. I've been seriously fly fishing for a couple of years now, and I'm ok at it. I practice all the time in my yard when I can't actually go fish, and I've noticed that my forward cast looks pretty good, but when I make my back cast it frequently just dies and doesn't unroll like it should especially when I'm trying to make long casts. has anyone had any similar experience and if so how did you fix it?
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[lunchbox]

Sounds like you are forcing the rod too much which could be causing a few problems.

-when most casters force too hard, they break their wrist. This opens up the loop and makes for a poor transfer of kinetic energy into the rod

-For some, the first move they make for a back cast is lifting up on the rod instead of going straight back. This also opens up the loop

-Many caster "shock" the rod, causing a tailing loop. This is when the fly catches the line/leader on either the forward or back cast.

-One common problem I see a ton of is the longer the cast, the more of a problem that "forward creep" becomes. Think of forward creep as coming to full draw on a bow and then letting it down a little. Most are doing this because they are winding up for the forward cast. It shortens your power stroke and doesn't transfer the energy of the rod by coming to a complete stop into the rod. Just like a arrow out of a bow is not going to carry as much energy and speed as one at full draw.

Focus on forming very nice, tight loops at short distances like 20-30 feet. Once your loops look sexy then work on the double haul for more distance. They key to perfect, tight loops is the rod tip traveling in a prefect, horizontal line and a very defined pause of the rod on the backcast.

Its tough to diagnose without seeing but I hope this helps
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[iliketofish]

awesome thanks for the advice!
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[Brook]

Another possibility is what I call the lazy lift. For the backcast, the angler just lifts the rod.

The movement should be an accelerated lift. The classic description is the movement you make when driving a nail into the wall. For some reason, while everyone gets this right on the forward cast they blow it on the backcast.

When I'm teaching newbies I tell them to imagine a tall tower next to them at the 12 o'clock position. There's a princess held captive in a room at the top of that tower. To rescue her they have to, literally, throww the line straight up to her, and check the rod movement right then.

Try that and see if it doesn't help. More than likely your rod will drift back to the 1 or even 2 o'clock position. But that's ok so long as you check it hard, rather than just stop lifting.

It also helps, initially, to stand sideways and watch the line. Soon as it straightens out behind you start your forward cast.

Brook
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[Dryrod]

[size 4][font "Garamond"][#008000]I find that in starting the back cast with the rod tip pointed forward, low to the water gives the fly line the straightest possible path down through the rod and onto the water. The absence of slack allows you to start moving the line and bending the rod as soon as you begin lifting it to make the back cast. Slack in the line would cause you to start and stop the back cast farther back, thus increasing the likelihood of directing the fly line downward behind me. [/#008000][/font][/size]
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[lunchbox]

The problem with that is you lose power for the forward cast because the rod is no longer being used as a lever to most efficiently shoot the line on the forward delivery.

You watch anyone who is very good at throwing extreme distances (100 to 120 feet) and the rod is pretty much laid back almost horizontal to the ground/water. The keys to having a strong distance cast are

-long powerstroke
-very defined pause in the back cast
-perfectly horizontal path of travel of the rod
-efficient double haul
-even application of power throughout the cast
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[macfly55]

IM not disputing what you are saying here.. but lets be real here.. the average angler on this forum does not try or strive to cast 120 feet plus.. as fat as I know most of those distance casters do it for competition.. unless you are using a specialized rod, like a spey, distances such as those you gave as example are unnecessary..

MacFly [cool]
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[lunchbox]

The point is not that you need to cast that far, as you don't. Not even for Permit or bones. But it does show that is the way to get the most power and efficiency out of a cast. The more line you are trying to cast, the more magnifyed any flaws that you have will be.
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[macfly55]

as I said I dont dispute the dynamics of the cast as you describe it.. so I think we are saying the same thing but from different angles..

MacFly [cool]
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[Brook]

The fact is, too, that you don't even need a rod to cast far. Numerous competition casters show off all the time, casting an entire line without a rod.

But so what? Distance casting is interesting, but has little to do with fishing. And the mechanics of it are not always transferable.

The real problem is that distance casting often discourages newbies. I was giving a presentation at a club, one time, and they were having casting practice before the meeting.

One beginner was telling me that he wanted to go on the club's next outing, but was reluctant to do so because he couldn't cast far.

"You mean like this," I said, and casually shot about 70 feet of line out. "Yeah, I'd be embarrased," he said, "because I can't do that."

I quickly set him straight. First of all, I noted, nobody in that group would ever do or say anything that wasn't supportive. But, more to the point, most trout are caught at 20 feet or less.

"Even if you could cast that far," I said, "what would you do if a fish took your fly way out there?"

Fortunately, he took my advice, went on the outing, and had a great time. But how many others get discouraged by the long-casting show-offs, and drop away from the sport?

When I'm teaching newbies my goal is to get them to make a perfectly executed forward cast of about 20 feet or so. Once they can do that consistently they can learn any part of our sport---including long distance casting if that's their thing.

But, as with anything else, you have to walk before you can run.

Brook
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[flygoddess]

Double Haul!!!!![laugh][laugh]

Eddie Robertson teaches the casting in reference to throwing a ping pong ball. Try throwing it 15 to 25' requires little arm movement. But try to throw it 100' you are now opening your arms to straight out and adding as much force as you can.
Another trick is think...straight path, not windshield wiper. Like running your hand on the underside of a shelf.

THEN DOUBLE HAUL!!!!![]
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[Brook]

But, Flygoddess, if you're not able, yet, to throw that ping pong ball 25 feet, 100 feet is totally unthinkable.

Somebody who cannot consistently make a straight-forward 20 foot cast is only going to be by hauling.
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[flygoddess]

That is the beauty of FLY FISHING. It isn't something you can pick and do, and you have proven my point.
It takes PRACTICE!!!! And allot of it, if that is the direction you want to go.
I sit on the couch watching TV and practice my hauling.

Anyway, when I get new clients that have never fly fished before, I pretty much teach them a roll cast off the bat.
#1. they are going to brake their wrist no matter what you tell them.
#2. they are going to loose flies in weeds and trees trying to get that back and forth motion.

So, by teaching them to roll cast, line is in/on the water more which is where the fish are. They are not going to loose flies. They can actually be more consistent with their cast. And finally, they can cast anywhere (with trees or a wall behind them)
Down side, you can only practice roll casting with water[]

Now as far as CASTING CLASSES, then I will take more time and teach the ping pong ball, under the shelf approach.[cool]
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[iliketofish]

I agree with what has been said about needing to learn to walk before you run. I can "walk" just fine, I want to learn how to "run" better. I practice accuracy all the time, more than I do the long cast, casting at rocks, leaves, even my daughter as she runs around chasing my practice fly! my long casts help me realize problems in my short game and vice versa. I know I don't need to cast into the backing in a fishing situation, but like you said I'm trying to refine my casting to get the most power and efficiency that I can. Thanks for all the advice
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[Dryrod]

[font "Garamond"][#008000][size 4]Sort of like golf "you drive for show and putt for dough. If you're out casting the fish then all bets are off. Or something like that.[/size][/#008000][/font]
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[lunchbox]

Very good example, iliketifish. Once you can throw very well at longer distances, the short stuff is a breeze. Just like I said before, working on throwing distances makes you a better caster and the short stuff somes very easily.
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