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My pike donation was a result of contacting the DWR about all the pike I was seeing in Hobble, near the lake. Drew Cushing asked me to please donate any I caught and I did the very next day.
I really wanted that two footer I was watching, but haven't gotten a strike from it yet.
The foul-hooked fish would have been a good donation, but letter of the law and all...
I'd rather not bank on my chances of having that overlooked for this specific case.
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[#0000FF]You done good. Better to obey the laws as written than to try to interpret them and get it wrong.
I find it interesting that the laws concerning method of capture...for carp...are very liberal. They include wholesale slaughter with clubs, pitchforks, spears, arrows, etc. But snagging them on purpose is still illegal...and according to the law you could be cited for keeping a snagged carp.
Then you have the mandatory keep and kill rules for pike in Utah Lake...but still subject to no snagging rule.
Reminds me of a saying we used to have in a company I worked for..."No good reason for it. Just company policy."
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ooooh. ok. I found a good pic a june sucker. Not even close... They were fun to catch. If you need sucker meat thats where to go
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[#0000FF]Some folks might be able to take advantage of your findings to stock up on sucker meat. So thanks for he tip.
Your confusion of the two species is not unusual and is the reason for the special regulations on Utah Lake...no use of sucker meat for bait at all. Too easy for someone to hack up a Junie for bait, thinking it is just one of the more common Utah Suckers. The predator species of the lake will munch either one and don't care which type of sucker upon which they are dining. But the mere thought of a darling Junie being sacrificed for catfish bait is enough to freak out the DWR folks.
Interestingly, there are grundles of Utah suckers all the way down the Jordan River, below Utah Lake. But the Junies primarily run mainly up the Provo River for spawning. However, there have been plantings of newly hatched June sucker fry into the renovated Hobble Creek and some returners have been noted in the past couple of years. It is hoped that it too will become an acceptable spawning stream. And that is probably why the pike are setting up shop at the lower end.
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I have a dumb question... walleye have similar foraging habits to northern pike and have a definite preference for soft-rayed prey species, suckers included. Is there no concern for the walleye population?
As far as northern pike are concerned... bad news for those trying to control them. In their northern waters back east, natural lakes that are; shallow, weedy, and soft-bottomed with gradually sloping shorelines all add up to the perfect conditions needed for supporting a healthy pike population.
The bucket biologists couldn't have picked a better place than Utah Lake IMO.
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Oh so much that could be said about the June Sucker issue. Unfortunately, it is pretty much decided, recover or lose the lake.
As to the Northern issue. I have been fishing UL for almost as long as some others on the board, many of them with TD . It has only been in the last few years that we have been hearing of and seeing Northern's being caught. Although there were stockings early in the history of UL, they never really took.
My personal belief is that someone pulled a few from Yuba and dropped em in UL in the last few years. The removal of carp per the June Sucker Recovery project has given them a better chance to survive. I will wager 2 rapala's that when the genetic studies are done on these critters, they will match the genetics of the fish out of Redmond and Yuba.
While it would be nice to have them there, a thriving population would be to great a cost, as it would result in the Feds taking over the lake and doing really rude things to it.
So, CATCH EM AND KEEP EM !!!! The only good Northern at UL is a DEAD one.
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[#0000FF]Walleye and northerns may dine on some of the same goodies but their foraging habits are vastly different. Walleyes are constantly moving around the lake, looking for food. But they may sometimes feed only at night. Northerns are generally ambush predators and hold tight to any kind of structure they can use to conceal themselves...then rush out and grab any passing prey item.
Those who are trying to save the Junies are well aware of the predation by walleyes. Every summer when the newly hatched suckerettes are released around the lake the walleyes have a party. A lot of the walleyes caught and opened up for the next few weeks contain multiple little Junies. There are jokes about the June Sucker spawning program merely being the walleye feeding program.
If it were up to those running the June Sucker Program there would be a bounty on walleyes. But it is far too late to implement any kind of walleye controls short of poisoning the whole lake. And if they can't do that for the carp the walleyes are safe.
Interestingly, DWR planted northerns in Utah Lake many long years ago...and they did not do well. Very few reports over the years of seeing any pike. But once Yuba got heavily populated the pike started making a more frequent appearance in Utah Lake. Hmmmmm?
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Thank you Dizzy!
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personally i hope no one helps them out with it.
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If they don't get the results that they want, they'll resort to more drastic measures. Whether someone helps them out or not.
I don't care whether there are June Suckers or Northern Pike in Utah Lake. But I despise bucket biologists.
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i'm sure it has been considered, has the D.N.R. tried to plant the june suckers in another lake?
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[#0000FF]Yes. There have been several other lakes that have received trial plantings of June suckers. As far as I know, there has been no spawning success although the adults can continue to live in these places for some time before expiring of old age.
These fish once filled the Provo River on their annual spawning runs upstream. But they were heavily harvested for food by the early pioneers and tons of them were killed when they were sucked out of the river by diversion dams into farmers' fields. Ditto for the formerly abundant cutthroats. The last cutthroat was seen in the 1930s...about the time a big drought left the lake an average of 1' deep...okay for the exploding carp population but not the cutts.
The June suckers seem totally patterned on the Provo River and Utah Lake. But with all of the growth and development around the lake...and the massive increase in both carp and predators in the lake...the surviving Junies are already bucking the odds. It is amazing that any have survived at all.
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There have been several reports on this board of cutthroat being caught in Utah Lake, on ice.
I got one about a mile away in one of my old lunch holes in Lindon, two or three years ago.
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[#0000FF]Indeed, there are a few cutts, browns and bows that wander down from upstream tributaries. But they are not permanent year round residents...with spawning and all that. They either retreat back up the cooler waters of the tributaries in the summer or die out in the summer heat...or get eaten by toothy critters.
The strain of cutts that resided naturally in Utah Lake prior to the coming of the pioneers was mostly adaptable to the variable conditions of the lake in those days. But they couldn't withstand heavy harvest, befouled waters and the onslaught of carp. It is a matter of record that the last one was recorded early in the 1930s.
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The problem with the "don't help them leave the pike" mentality, is that if they start to see a decline in the population of the June suckers then the DWR loses control of the current management program. Feds will come in and Likely, the lake will be poisoned or subject to other just as ridiculous programs that will be aimed to eliminate predatory fish from the Utah lake equation. This means that the pike you so desperately want in the lake aren't going to stay unless the June sucker becomes extinct. And Long before they ever get to that point the lake will be poisoned or otherwise treated to provide a better home for the suckers.
So either we help them where we can in removing any and all northern pike from the lake, or we 'enjoy' the process of the entire ecosystem of Utah lake being eradicated and starting over.
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Oh, come on mods, don't delete all the incoherent anti DWR, anti June sucker rants. They effectively generate more support for the program and the DWR than anything the division or a supporter like myself could ever put up. ;-)
Walleye predation and the June sucker was brought up earlier. Several year ago, when the Utah Lake fisheries forum was still going on, a biologist from Utah State presented a study to the forum called a food web analysis regarding Utah lake. It described the major food chain interactions among the different fish species there. The Cliff notes version of it was that walleye were less of a threat to June sucker restoration than would be expected and that actually, the white bass may be more of a threat.
Subsequent studies showed how difficult it would be to eliminate or control the white bass, so efforts went more towards carp control and habitat enhancement.
So walleye guys, you have relatively little to worry about with the June sucker program. (Unless the BFT ranters get their way and the recovery program is tossed in the trash bin and the Feds take over, then who knows what will happen .)
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[quote doggonefishin]
Oh, come on mods, don't delete all the incoherent anti DWR, anti June sucker rants. They effectively generate more support for the program and the DWR than anything the division or a supporter like myself could ever put up. ;-)
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[#0000FF]I'm not sure what survey methods are used by DWR to check the dining habits of walleyes. But I do know from first hand observation as well as feedback from fellow walleye catchers that those toothy denizens do indeed dine royally on suckers for a short period after the new hatchlings are dumped in the lake each year.
I caught about a 5 pound walleye near the mouth of the Provo river a couple of years ago that had 4 freshly munched Junies in its tummy...each about 4 inches long. And I have heard similar tales from others...and from walleyes taken in different spots around the lake.
I suspect that the newly planted suckerettes are a bit disoriented and are easy prey until they learn to hide out better...if they live long enough to learn.
But you are right about the white bass too. They can and do eat small prey species up to about six inches...especially their own young-of-the-year.
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[quote TubeDude][#0000ff]I'm not sure what survey methods are used by DWR to check the dining habits of walleyes. But I do know from first hand observation as well as feedback from fellow walleye catchers that those toothy denizens do indeed dine royally on suckers for a short period after the new hatchlings are dumped in the lake each year.
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Sure, but I think you answered your own question. The walleye are dining on the buffet of an artificial stocking of a bunch of tender, disoriented minnows dumped en masse, into a confined area. No different than chumming. We can all attest that walleye aren't dumb and couldn't resist such a feast. Even still, it appears that a few still make it through and are bolstering the sampled Junie population. Maybe, like rainbows at Strawberry, if they changed up how they planted the minnows, they could get better results.
Two follow up points.
1. If the Junies were reproducing naturally in a suitable habitat, this type of mass predation would be avoided. There would still be predation but it wouldn't be the free-for-all it is now. The web analysis indicated that the eyes in a natural setting would be more likely to dine on mudders, perch, bluegills, and whities than preferentially nail the Junies. I've done far fewer walleye "autopsies" than you, but mudders, panfish, and whites usually is what I find in UL walleye innards, so the study would seem to be supported that way.
2. There are more factors than predation that affect the survival of a species. The competition for resources is a key one. The food web analysis showed that in UL, mudders, perch, panfish and walleye had a fairly complex food web and didn't utilize a lot of resources that Junies like/need. White bass, however, kind of had their own food web, eating small zooplankton and midge larvae when young and then switching largely to cannibalism when bigger. Their food web did apparently cut into the Junie resources some and thus drew the conclusion from the Utah State researcher.
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[#0000FF]Your point #2 is a good point...perhaps even more important than predation. If there are limited food resources for the young Junies...due to competition with virtually all other species in Utah Lake...then it will be tougher for them to reach a size large enough to avoid predation.
Not unlike the common competition factor between chubs and rainbows. The chubs outcompete the small rainbows for food and the rainbows do not grow quickly or bulk up much.
Another good example is the gizzard shad in Willard. Gizzard shad vacuum up so much of the zooplankton and other bitty bites needed by crappies and other species that those other species have a lower recruitment rate. Even if the crappies have a good spawn a lot of their young die off early because of lack of food. And I suspect that the reason for a lower survival rate of the sac fry wipers planted by DWR is due to lack of invertebrate food during their early growth period.
Back to white bass, it is a fact Jack that they rely on zooplankton and other small stuff during much of the year...especially when there are no available fry of edible size on the menu. And since the June suckers also depend on that stuff there is going to be competition. If there is a greater biomass of white bass guess which species wins.
Poor Junies. The carp wipe out their preferred habitat, all the other species clean out their cupboards and then the predators dine on the survivors. I wouldn't wanna be one of them.
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