Transporting live crawdads

[cutter4]

Heres a good story for ya.I was managing a meat market in salt lake,and we specialized in fresh seafood.I had a guy order 10 lbs live crayfish.When they arrived I was in a meeting,so my asst mgr took the 10 lbs of crawdads and dumped them in my live lobster tank.Well 10 lbs of bugs can purge alot and when I got out of my hour meeting my lobster tank looked like a mud hole.WE saved the dads and the lobster,but it took my asst 4 hours to get the tank back in good order.[]
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[castnshoot]

[quote cutter4]Heres a good story for ya.I was managing a meat market in salt lake,and we specialized in fresh seafood.I had a guy order 10 lbs live crayfish.When they arrived I was in a meeting,so my asst mgr took the 10 lbs of crawdads and dumped them in my live lobster tank.Well 10 lbs of bugs can purge alot and when I got out of my hour meeting my lobster tank looked like a mud hole.WE saved the dads and the lobster,but it took my asst 4 hours to get the tank back in good order.[][/quote]

So Cutter, Maybe you know,,,,is there an exception to the NO live crawdad regs for
the food service industry in Utah?
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[Gemcityslayer]

[quote TubeDude][#0000FF]I doubt that many who actually harvest and eat crawdads agree with the law as written. Like other laws on the Utah books it was put in the regulations by people...people who are human and sometimes have to struggle with wording so that it makes a point and makes sense too. In the past few years there has been an open attitude at DWR to try to change wordings subject to misunderstandings. They have even been known to amend the regs to make them more in line with reality. A good example was their effort to clarify the definition of cutthroat markings at Strawberry.

I suspect that if enough crawdad fanciers were to voice their opinions and desires on this issue that it might at least come up for objective review.

Otherwise, it smacks of the attitude often found in some big corporations...whenever someone asks "why?". "Ain't no good reason for it. It's just company policy."
[/#0000FF][/quote]

No doubt.
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[cutter4]

Every item that comes into my store must have a COR(country of origen)Date it was harvested,and lot number,Also must state if it was wild caught or farm raised.Dont know of any specoal wildlife regs on this,but when I sell these live bugs I dont have to do anything special regarding where they were purchased.This brings some questions to my frail old mind,and I guess I better do some research.This COR data is also being used on all meat and poultry,and preduce.We must have it signed as to where it came from,and whether it was wild or farmed.There is a potential 1,000 dollar fine for every item that is not tagged properly.Added much more bookwork to my job.[mad]
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[dowhatwecan]

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[font "Calibri"][size 3]The reason for this rule and other similar rules that prohibit the transportation and use of live baitfish, gamefish and other related critters such as mussels is the widespread release of these critters into our fisheries. I agree that laws don't stop the people who are hell bent on breaking the law but it does keep the folks who might be on the fence and especially the folks who are law abiding folks but need educated from making bad decisions. Below I provided a little information about our problem in Utah and a few bits from other states in the west.[/size][/font]
[font "Calibri"][size 3]• Treatments to kill fish can be extremely expensive. In recentdecades, the Division has spent more than $4 million to treat StrawberryReservoir, Scofield Reservoir, Panguitch Lake and other fisheries. The moneyspent on the treatments could have been used to improve fishing in other areasand to raise more fish in state hatcheries. This fall we will chemically treat Gunlock and Red Fleet Reservoir to remove illegally introduced game fish. We just recently had an confirmed report of walleye in Steinaker and Big Sandwash in the Vernal area as well as an unconfirmed report of northern pike in the Flaming Gorge.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• After a treatment project happens, it takes a few yearsbefore fishing is good again at the water that was treated. Anglers who enjoyedfishing at that water will have to go elsewhere for a few years. It costs moreto raise hatchery fish to a size where they can compete with some illegallyintroduced fish if it's not treated. Higher costs reduce the number of fish the Division can stock,which also reduces opportunity for anglers.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• Illegal fish stocking can hurt threatened and endangeredfish in the state.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• Those who own businesses near an affected body of watercan lose revenue.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]How big is theproblem?[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]Utah has confirmed more than 50 illegal introductions since2000. Some of the animals are fish, while others are mussels, bullfrogs andunwanted aquarium pets. Many illegal introductions can remain undetected foryears, which makes it difficult to identify and stop the perpetrator.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]What steps has Utahtaken to combat this issue?[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]Utah has worked consistently with other state and federalnatural resource agencies to increase awareness of this issue throughout thewest and specifically in Utah. Utah alsoworks extensively with the TV and written press to ensure the public iscontinually exposed and educated about illegal fish introductions. Lastly Utah has a pretty rigid response toillegal sportfish introductions. Utahimmediately recommends a “catch and kill” regulation be put on the illegallymoved fish on the water that it was moved into. This regulation has the following stipulations: 1. There is no limit 2. All fish that are caught must be kept 3. Allfish must be immediately killed. Utahhas also considered “no harvest” regulations as well. Lastly Utah continues to chemically treatreservoirs as quickly as possible after confirming an illegal fish introductionhas taken place. [/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]Some of our neighborshave larger problems:[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• Montana wildlife officials recently confirmed that theyhave had more than 500 illegal introductions the bulk of these introductions are sport and bait fish.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• In Washington state, biologists estimate that pet ownersannually release up 21,000 aquarium fish into the Puget Sound area.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• Washington biologists also estimate that 58 percent of theaquarium fish sold could have a serious impact on native ecosystems.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]• British Columbia has more than 200 waters that havesuffered from illegal introductions. Utah’s fisheries biologists want to avoidsituations like these and need your help to treat this problem as aggressivelyas possible.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]I hope this help folks understand these types of rules a little better.[/size][/font]
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[font "Calibri"][size 3]Drew[/size][/font]
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[downed_Phly]

[quote dowhatwecan]...especially the folks who are law abiding folks but need educated from making bad decisions. [/quote]

That right there is probably the only justification for the policy that I agree with. Some people just don't realize the impact of their decisions.


Thanks, Drew. That's some great info.

But I can't help thinking that crayfish being illegally introduced into an ecosystem is a different ballgame from the devastating potential that introducing certain fish might have. I mean, we're not treating Gunlock and Red Fleet because of the introduction of crayfish. Would that ever even be a possibility - to have to treat a body of water because of the introduction of crayfish?

I understand the damage that can be done by introducing certain species of fish, but I just don't see that happening (in Utah) if crayfish were ever introduced. Am I underestimating their devastating potential?
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[dowhatwecan]

There are several other non-native crawfish that could be rough if they found their way here but I quickly searched for the worst. These crawfish are slowly making their way west via "budket" management. Please take a look at the following link

http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/ais/rustycrayfish_invader



Drew
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[PBH]

[quote downed_Phly]
I understand the damage that can be done by introducing certain species of fish, but I just don't see that happening (in Utah) if crayfish were ever introduced. Am I underestimating their devastating potential?[/quote]


What good do crayfish do for Strawberry Reservoir? Kolob Reservoir?

Crayfish DIRECTLY compete with trout.

They certainly do change systems. Not all of our fisheries have, or should have, fish species that prey on crayfish.


So the guys taking crayfish home to eat should simply be able to tell the CO "we're taking them home to eat..." and be OK. What about the guys taking them home to use as live bait in a lake currently void of crayfish? What do they tell the CO? "we're taking them home to eat them...".


It's not just about the crayfish. It's also about transporting water, and the other critters living in the water -- mussel veligers, whirling disease, milfoil, etc.
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[1sthound]

Tough spot to be in, Thanks for the insight
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[downed_Phly]

[quote PBH]

Crayfish DIRECTLY compete with trout.[/quote]

Sure, trout and crawdads share some common items in their diets, but crawfish HARDLY compete with the trout. In many cases, the healthy crawfish population FEEDS the trout. I've seen several pictures on this site of a trout slit open with a stomach full of crawfish.

I do NOT advocate bucket biology at all, but I think these regs need to be changed.

I also acknowledge that COs are in a tough spot. No way to differentiate between people practicing "bucket biology" and people transporting them home for a cookout. BUT, it goes back to the same concept- those who are planning on practicing "bucket biology" are going to do so regardless of the laws in place. Many law abiding citizens can and would be responsible with a regulation change.
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[Gemcityslayer]

At a certain point laws like this and others only penalize the people with good intentions. The people who want to use craws for live bait will do it regardless of the law. They simply do not care. You can't make them. It is impossible. It is a miracle these people can tie their own shoes let alone follow rules or understand the reasons behind them.


I am all for spending money and resources on educating the people who are capable of learning and understanding the reasoning and intent of the law. That is the best we can do, educate. But at the end of the day some people are beyond our grasp in that regard. No matter how much you try, or how strict the fines and penalties are, you cannot stop the idiots from being idiots.

People should be able to keep crawfish alive and transport them alive to their homes for consumption. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that practice. It does not hurt anyone.

It should be illegal to use live crawfish as bait, that came from a different body of water. It should be illegal to let them go anywhere but where you got them from. Those things do/could cause harm to the rest of us.
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[utahgolf]

since when do criminals follow the regs? I don't think changing the reg will somehow give law abiding citizens the urge to go illegal dump them into a lake.
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[castnshoot]

So Drew, is it legal to possess live Crawdads in Utah, that have been bought at the local seafood market?
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[Gemcityslayer]

I will let Drew answer that for you definitively, but I think as soon as you buy them and transport them you are breaking the law. (From my interpretation of the law)
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[SHAWDAWG]

Maybe the DWR should take a hint. People transplant these fish species because that is what they want to catch. Fisherman want to catch pike, walleye, bass, crappie, and perch because they are good to eat. Every one i know wont even fish for trout. People call them slimers because they are not a desired game fish. Save the millions of dollars and quit planting trout. Stop spending millions of dollars trying to eradicate the fish that the fisherman want in the system. Stop spending millions of dollars trying to save trash fish that have very little economic or ecological benefit. Maybe if you do this people might actually come here from other states and spend millions of dollars on hotels, bait, gas, food and everything else fisherman spend money on.
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[doggonefishin]

[quote downed_Phly]
Sure, trout and crawdads sure some common items in their diets, but crawfish HARDLY compete with the trout.[/quote]

That may or may not be the case in most cases like Strawberry, where the cutts eat crawdads like candy at certain times, but I do know of 2 examples where crawdads were a problem.

1. I am aware of a lake in Wyoming that produced some of the biggest grayling in the state. Crayfish got in there and the grayling population tanked.

2. Red Butte lake by the U was/is used as a reserve lake for June suckers. They had to gt the suckers out temporarily and drain the lake in an effort to remove the crayfish that invaded there. (I'm sure this makes the June sucker haters on the board rejoice)


While I can certainly see your point, I simply see no way to write the regulation other than how it is currently done. The disease issue PBH brought up probably requires additional emphasis. I too like a nice crawdad boil and have had outstanding results processing and deveining the dads on the lakeshore and immediately putting the meat on ice for the trip home.
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[downed_Phly]

[quote doggonefishin]Red Butte lake by the U was/is used as a reserve lake for June suckers. They had to gt the suckers out temporarily and drain the lake in an effort to remove the crayfish that invaded there. [/quote]

This is the exact kind of info I was interested in hearing. You're kinda blowing holes in my argument though, haha. [mad] I wouldn't think that Red Butte would be a particular danger because it is closed to fishing, but those critters got in there somehow, huh? It's especially strange because I thought that Red Butte was used as a "hatchery" to raise bonneville cutts. I'm surprised the cutts (and other predators) wouldn't keep the numbers of crawdads in check. But just the fact that something like this has happened in Utah is definitely food for thought. I'm still not convinced that the ecological threat of the invasive crawdads justifies such strict transportation regulations, but there are valid points on both side to consider.
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[Kent]

[quote SHAWDAWG]

Every one i know wont even fish for trout.

[/quote]

Just a suggestion, you need to meet more people.
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[gmwahl]

You must run with a really small crowd. Most fisherman I personally know in Utah fish for and eat trout.
I love fishing for and catching warm water fish too, but most of our mountain lakes do best with trout.
I think our DWR does an excellent job balancing opportunities between warm water and cold water species. A trout tastes excellent when filleted and grilled and most of my buddies agree.
It almost sounds like you're advocating bucket biology in order to do what ever you perceive the DWR won't do for your particular taste in fishing...or to teach them a lesson in listening to the uneducated armchair biologists.
Enjoy the diversity our state offers us anglers.
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[SHAWDAWG]

I will admit that i run with a small crowd of hard core fishermen. I wont typically fish for trout so the people i enjoy fishing with are the same. I understand the need for diversity. I have a degree in wildlife science. There are plenty of mountain lakes/rivers that thrive with trout and that is a good thing. Im not advocating buck biology. I also run successful business and understand that economics and customers keep it successful. The DWR is always crying about funding but they waist millions of dollars doing stupid things that dont bring fishermen into Utah. The june sucker has no economic benefit to the state yet millions of dollars are spent trying to save it. Utah has 3 lakes with Pike and the DWR are trying to kill them either with kill orders or extreme limits. We have some good walleye fishing but nothing like the midwest or canada and now the DWR want to remove them from some lakes and the green river to save more trash fish and/or trout. Utah has 1 lake that i would consider a great perch fishery and the DWR has a tournament to catch thousands of perch that were mostly just dumped in a dumpster just because the lake is historically a trout lovers lake. I understand the DWR's hands are tied sometimes by the feds but they could be much more efficient at spending their money. They would also have a much bigger budgets if they could bring in more out of state fishermen. Anybody in Utah that thinks that this state has good bass, walleye, panfish or pike fishing then you must not travel much. There are a few lakes were fishing for these species is ok but not good enough to bring in out of state fishermen.
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