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If there's enough food to grow big fish, it doesn't matter if you take the big fish out. They'll be replaced by fish growing to their potential. If there's not enough food, the rest of the fish will compete for whatever is left, and won't grow to their potential.
And they seem to be more than happy to take 6 inch perch.
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Your right they do..
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YUP you are right fisherman are happy with 6" fish..
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Hey, go easy on Cliff. I'm genuinely worried about his blood pressure when he finds out what they want to do with the proposed Jordanelle regulations.
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You need to look out of Utah and see what other states have come up with to stop the so called stunting (fish growing up to a size to small for good fishing)..
Many have had the same thing happen as what we do at Jordanelle is at now..
Some of the states are: Tx, Cal, Maine Ny Wi Mi, Just to list a few and there are more over 12..
And on other lakes even in Utah they have come up with the same answer..Slot limits ...
Why so the fish can grow big enough to eat the little fish and any others like chubs in Utah.. Over harvest of bigger fish..Slots keep many of the big fish that is needed to keep a lake in good size fish..Look at the Berry..
MANAGEMENT how hard is it???
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They stopped the spear fisherman Cliff???
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If I remember right the DWR did a survey of the fish in Pelican and found that even the older fish that they took scale samples fron were still only 12-14 inches long.
I will see if I can find that again when I can get to a computer.
It's hard to get big if there isn't any food.
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Thats good ..
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[quote a_bow_nut]If I remember right the DWR did a survey of the fish in Pelican and found that even the older fish that they took scale samples fron were still only 12-14 inches long.
I will see if I can find that again when I can get to a computer.
It's hard to get big if there isn't any food.[/quote]
That's the concept Cliff doesn't understand...protecting the "big" fish doesn't do any good when fish are growing old without growing big. Hence, the word "stunting". When you have a "stunted" population of fish, fish growth is dramatically slowed because there are too many fish for available food. Protecting fish over say 16 inches in a bass population could only help if bass were growing to 16 inches. The problem at Jordanelle right now is that we have too many small bass to allow fish to grow to those big sizes.
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What Cliff, and many others, don't understand is that managing fish is NOT like managing deer. Fish are NOT mammals. Fish do not grow like mammals.
Fish growth is indeterminate. Mammal growth is determinate. Think about an elephant. When a baby elephant is born, it is "pre-determined" that it will grow big over the course of it's life. Fish differ. They rely on habitat and environment much more so than mammals. Fish grow to match their environment. Thus, we often times find OLD fish that are SMALL. When fish reach sexually mature ages at less than desired sizes, we have a "stunting" problem. Stunting happens when you have small old fish reproducing and creating more fish. Creating more fish compounds the stunting issue. Now you have more, and more small old fish reproducing.
When stunting occurs, guess what? You don't get big fish anymore! They simply are not there! So having a slot to protect those "big" fish is crazy because there are no big fish to protect!
You have to do something to reduce those small fish. Education is key. Get anglers (like Cliff) to realize the benefits of harvesting those small fish. Unfortunately, anglers can't really do this on their own. We just can't (or won't) harvest enough to do any good.
How do you fix this?
Without natural systems in place to control populations of non-native fish, it is very difficult. This is exactly why fish managers are very careful about what species they put in our lakes and reservoirs, and exactly why they cringe about anglers moving fish on their own.
The thing is, all of the DWR fisheries managers saw this coming with Jordanelle -- and they tried to get anglers to understand and help the problem to prolong the good fishing for as long as they could. Anglers didn't want to listen -- some (Cliff??) are still arguing alternatives. We now have exactly what was predicted.
I say that we go to the water owners and request to drop the water level dramatically each year just after the perch and smb spawns. Leave those beds and fry high and dry!
good luck.
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[quote bassrods]
No lake or water way has ever been helped by fishing the bigger fish out..[/quote]
That's incorrect. You just are looking at things wrong, as usual. Many waters have regulations that encourage the harvest of ANY SIZE fish, including the "bigger fish". You just don't see regulations targeting ONLY those bigger fish because in those scenarios it is beneficial to remove fish of any size. There are lots and lots of lakes that benefit from the removal of those bigger fish.
As has been said many, many times - and many times specifically to Cliff -- is that when you remove a "big" fish you open up a "slot" that a smaller fish quickly fills. This provides that smaller fish the opportunity to enter a "fast growth" period. Most of us understand that we want fish to be in that fast growth range because that's how you get big fish. So, removal of big is very often a beneficial key to growing big fish.
[quote bassrods]
MANAGEMENT how hard is it???[/quote]
management of fish is easy. It's the people (anglers) that are hard to manage.
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[quote PBH]
[quote bassrods]
MANAGEMENT how hard is it???[/quote]
management of fish is easy. It's the people (anglers) that are hard to manage.[/quote]
Could I get a signed, framed copy of that?
Truer words were never written.
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"I say that we go to the water owners and request to drop the water level dramatically each year just after the perch and smb spawns. Leave those beds and fry high and dry!"
[#0000FF]You are always harping on how "ignorant" we mere anglers are. That statement shows a glaring ignorance on your part...of what really makes Jordanelle tick. Perch are the ONLY forage for smallmouth. Killing off all the yearly spawn of perch would only make matters worse for the smallies.
Also...perch spawn two to three months ahead of smallies.
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[quote TubeDude]"I say that we go to the water owners and request to drop the water level dramatically each year just after the perch and smb spawns. Leave those beds and fry high and dry!"
[#0000FF]You are always harping on how "ignorant" we mere anglers are. That statement shows a glaring ignorance on your part...of what really makes Jordanelle tick. Perch are the ONLY forage for smallmouth. Killing off all the yearly spawn of perch would only make matters worse for the smallies.
Also...perch spawn two to three months ahead of smallies.
[/#0000FF][#0000FF][/#0000FF][/quote]
I hate to tell you Tuberdude...but, this is the perfect example of ignorance. What happened to the chubs in Jordanelle? Were they knocked way back because of perch predation or were they eliminated magically. I would contend that if the perch were unable to reproduce and their numbers dropped significantly, the chubs would come back. And, you would have more than enough forage for smallmouth.
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[quote TubeDude]
[#0000ff]You are always harping on how "ignorant" we mere anglers are. [/#0000ff][#0000ff][/quote]
[#000000]Are you suggesting that I am not included in the mere anglers group?[/#000000]
[/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][quote TubeDude]That statement shows a glaring ignorance on your part...of what really makes Jordanelle tick. Perch are the ONLY forage for smallmouth. Killing off all the yearly spawn of perch would only make matters worse for the smallies.
Also...perch spawn two to three months ahead of smallies.
[/#0000ff][#0000ff][/#0000ff][/quote]
See, TubeDud, you miss the point as well.
by dropping water levels, you wouldn't eliminate all perch. You'd just significantly affect their population. Knock them back, and you'd allow the rest of the fish an opportunity for FAST GROWTH. Again, this is how you produce big fish.
Do you honestly think that if the perch were gone, the SMB would starve because perch are the only forage? Hogwash!
And, as you pointed out: perch spawn multiple times and at different times than SMB. Bingo! You pointed out why the scenario of dropping water levels - no matter how effective it might be - would not be a viable solution. You'd never be able to pull that one off. Too bad. It would help.
Tube -- this is a good example of why perch are bad for most of our reservoirs. You simply can't control them and they end up small. They also affect every other species in the reservoir -- they are pretty much the top-level predator. The exception is Yuba -- why? Hmmmm.....it couldn't have anything to do with water levels, could it?
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"The thing is, all of the DWR fisheries managers saw this coming with Jordanelle -- and they tried to get anglers to understand"
At Jordanelle
The Bass limit was 6 fish non over 12" for the majority of time.
Then in 2011 five years ago the big change that came from such DWR foresight, 6 fish limit with 1 over 12". WOW Truly Visionary!!!
Big Game (Deer) are managed poorly as well by the same enlightened agency unless your a CWMU then they just transfer ownership of the publics Wildlife to become a cash crop for some big landowner.
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dog lover -- why were those regulations in place?
Were they what the fisheries managers wanted?
Or, did anglers fight the DWR and throw fits and get things set how they wanted?
hmmmm.....sounds like cycle we just keep going through over and over. And over.
And over.
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The point is the regulating agency came up with the original regulations and has made one miner change ever.
A change so small that the number of small Bass in Jordanell has grown not shrunk.(or failed to shrink)
If you are the regulator and want the small bass removed, 10 bass limit 1 over 14" should do it. Give it five years and see if bigger bass start showing up.
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[quote Dog-lover]
If you are the regulator and want the small bass removed, 10 bass limit 1 over 14" should do it. Give it five years and see if bigger bass start showing up.[/quote]
making the regulation change without angler support would result in a failed plan.
Do anglers currently harvest what the regulation allows for today?
the conundrum is similar to the Provo River (as well as many others) and brown trout. It doesn't matter what the regulations allow for if anglers won't harvest them anyway.
Would Cliff harvest 10 bass under 14" from Jordanelle?
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I know some of the posters on this thread Fish Minersville.
I am curious to know what you guys think the Wipers have done to the Smallmouth in Minersville? If anything.
I am catching some nice Smallmouth, and Wipers this spring, but not any "small" Smallmouth.
Last year in late spring most of the Wipers I caught were full of Smallmouth fry. It seems the Wipers have really hammered the chubs.
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