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[quote doggonefishin] As for your southern examples, it may have been interesting to follow things out a few years on these, but Otter creek has been controlled. (wipers are only barely showing up this year) Also, if there are abundant crawdads in a given lake, then the smallies will eat these and dine on minnows less. [/quote]
This very well might be why the smb in Minersville have never controlled the rough fish. Both smb and crawfish occupy the same areas, which is why crawfish are an important food source for smb. Chubs, on the other hand, are an open water schooling fish, which makes them a poor choice for smb.
I still contend that if you removed the perch from the equation at Jordanelle, you'd improve the smb population. Perch are not helping that lake. As much as people want perch to be a "forage" they are still a predator! Too many predators with no forage = a bad situation.
so, kokanee -- what are they going to do to the dynamics? Obviously, some smb will utilize that source of prey. But will it make any difference? Obviously, the kokanee angling crowd will be happy, and the lake might turn into a nice kokanee fishery. But I don't think you'll see much change with the perch and smb. I'm still surprised that walleye have never shown up in any numbers to truly speak of. Maybe the next step is to stock the hell out of the lake with sterile walleye or saugeye? Put a dent in those nasty perch....
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PBH may be on to something. When comparing the nelle to starvation, one major difference is the presence of walleye. I like to think that starvation is a well balanced fishery. The perch are large, and appear to have a good mix of age class. The walleye are healthy, smb seem to be as well, though I have to admit I don't target bass at starvation. I do catch trout there, and The trout are doing awesome. Could a sterile walleye population balance Jordanelle?
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"Could a sterile walleye population balance Jordanelle?"
[#0000FF]Only if they were planted small enough for the smallies to eat.
If there is not enough food for the smallmouth, what would the walleyes eat?
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"I still contend that if you removed the perch from the equation at Jordanelle, you'd improve the smb population. Perch are not helping that lake. As much as people want perch to be a "forage" they are still a predator! Too many predators with no forage = a bad situation."
[#0000FF]I think that a major part of your thought process is predicated upon a basic dislike of perch. What you have never considered (apparently) is that perch were formerly a big part of the angler interest in Jordanelle. A whole lot of anglers fished that lake with perch as a primary target...both summer and winter.
There were many families that liked Jordanelle because it was a good place to take the kids for perch. They could catch a grundle and have a good time. Also, I'm guessing that over 90 percent of the ice anglers were fishing for perch and the occasional trout was almost a nuisance. It was with me and the folks I fished with. The last few years there have been very few ice anglers on Jordanelle, and they leave bitching about the dinky perch...and how few there are.
Even when there were still plenty of edible sized chubs in the lake the larger smallmouth bass would still pattern on six inch perch. Myself and many other anglers I know have had the experience of reeling in a dink perch only to be suddenly attached to a six pound smallmouth. And there have been more than a few times when I looked down into the water from my tube and watched several big smallies following a hooked perch up from the bottom. I know of one guy who did not believe in following the rules and deliberately caught and kept several small perch alive...to be send back down with hooks in them. And he caught (and released) numbers of bass 5-6 pounds or better. He didn't get caught. should have.
I still have trouble understanding how you can continue to say that perch should be eliminated from Jordanelle. But good luck with that. It will be virtually impossible to completely eradicate them. And my thinking is the more perch the better...not the less the better. Because in spite of your optimism about chubs magically flooding the lake with the perch gone, I seriously doubt that the smallies, trout and the large chubs will leave all the newly spawned chublets alone long enough for them to make an encore appearance.
Are we having fun yet? Am I good at taking your bait? Another case of hook in mouth disease.
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[quote TubeDude][#0000ff] What you have never considered (apparently) is that perch were formerly a big part of the angler interest in Jordanelle. A whole lot of anglers fished that lake with perch as a primary target...both summer and winter. [/#0000ff]
[#0000ff][/quote]
[#000000]I certainly have considered it. Just like at Fish Lake. The majority of people fishing it are fishing for perch, with a hope of landing that "big one" lake trout. But, just because people are flocking to that lake to fish for perch doesn't mean that perch are the "best" option for that lake. Or any lake.
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[#0000ff][quote TubeDude]Are we having fun yet? Am I good at taking your bait? Another case of hook in mouth disease.
[/#0000ff][/quote]
I'm enjoying it.
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Tube dude - do you know anything about why we don't have more baitfish planted in some of our lakes? I see you're a proponent of chubs, but I think they'd be cyclical again. why not some type or reproducing minnows, shad, or other baitfish?
on the structure question that you responded to; very true with our reservoirs, which are basically water tanks that fill in the spring and drawdown in the fall, leaving the man made structures high, dry and ugly. Have you ever seen in your travels or do you have any thoughts on some kind of floating structures? water skiers might not like it, but you get the idea. would rise and fall with the water fluctuations.
lastly, on Utah lake mercury, you are right. I stand corrected, per the state website. thanks for your insights on the above topics in advance.
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[quote TubeDude]
[#0000FF]I think that a major part of your thought process is predicated upon a basic dislike of perch. What you have never considered (apparently) is that perch were formerly a big part of the angler interest in Jordanelle. A whole lot of anglers fished that lake with perch as a primary target...both summer and winter.
There were many families that liked Jordanelle because it was a good place to take the kids for perch. They could catch a grundle and have a good time. Also, I'm guessing that over 90 percent of the ice anglers were fishing for perch and the occasional trout was almost a nuisance. It was with me and the folks I fished with. The last few years there have been very few ice anglers on Jordanelle, and they leave bitching about the dinky perch...and how few there are.
[/#0000FF][/quote]
I guess I'm in the minority then. I'd fish for ANYTHING before I'd bother with those pesky, spiny bastages. Bait stealing buggers don't fight, and never get big enough to worry about. And especially in the winter they suffer from air bladder ruptures.
[red]⫸[/red][orange]<{[/orange][yellow]{{[/yellow][green]{{[/green][size 4][blue]⦇[/blue][/size][blue]°[/blue][#8000FF]>[/#8000FF]
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"Tube dude - do you know anything about why we don't have more baitfish planted in some of our lakes? I see you're a proponent of chubs, but I think they'd be cyclical again. why not some type or reproducing minnows, shad, or other baitfish?"
[#0000FF]I have no firsthand knowledge of any experiments that have happened in the past few years. However, in earlier days there were a lot of trial introductions in both Utah Lake and Willard...in an attempt to find alternative bait species that would grow, prosper and feed the masses. Most never showed up again after their first trial run.
Different in the trout ponds. So many of the minnows...like chubs...compete with small trout for available forage and cover. Chubs and rainbows definitely do not coexist peacefully. Many others are not as bad, but in relatively infertile lakes like many of our Utah ponds almost any competition with hatchery pets is not allowed.
In more recent times we have the added detriment of new and nasty diseases. So many of our nation's waters are now infected with destructive fish ailments that it is difficult to find a disease free source from which to even try new species.
Utah has a bunch of native and introduced species of "minnows"...including fatheads. The only reason I suggest chubs...instead of fatheads, various shiners, dace, sculpins or other species is that they are almost universally available for quick capture and transplant. It would be like bringing a bag of chicken feed to the chicken coop.
Chubs definitely have their downsides. And, as we have experienced, if they get out of hand the solution could quickly become a whole 'nother problem. DWR has spent enough time and money trying to get rid of chubs that it's just agin' their nature to use them to supplement starving predators.
Shad are pretty much out. Threadfin shad will not live in waters below about 55 degrees. That is most of our waters above Lake Powell. Gizzard shad are hardier...but not by much. But they grow large...up to 20 inches...and would vacuum up a lot of the zooplankton needed by trout and kokanee. That is a no no in Utah. Without a top predator (like wipers or stripers) the Gizzard shad could multiply and destroy a lake.
The one issue I did not address on adding artificial structure...of any kind...is the views of the lake owners and the downstream water users' associations. They have proven very inflexible on many waters about putting anything into their waters that could even remotely cause water quality problems or increase liability to anyone using their facilities. We live in a litigious society and some folks would go out of their way to arrange a frivolous lawsuit for out of court settlement. Doesn't sound serious to us, but to their lawyers they don't want to leave any openings.
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[quote TubeDude]
[#0000FF]The one issue I did not address on adding artificial structure...of any kind...is the views of the lake owners and the downstream water users' associations. They have proven very inflexible on many waters about putting anything into their waters that could even remotely cause water quality problems or increase liability to anyone using their facilities. We live in a litigious society and some folks would go out of their way to arrange a frivolous lawsuit for out of court settlement. Doesn't sound serious to us, but to their lawyers they don't want to leave any openings.
[/#0000FF][/quote]
I don't know any water owners around that area, but I doubt that chemicals from introducing structure is the issue, but then again I never met a water share holder from there. I think the greater issue in that problem is the red tape the army corps of engineers put in place for our reservoirs. Its tough enough tape that water managers and state parks would rather just leave it alone.
As far as introducing sterile walleye, I was thinking about the history of Starvation and how it may apply to Jordanelle. Correct me if I'm wrong on my starvation history. Its been I while since I had a starvation lesson.
-chubs were overrunning the lake and competing with trout.
-predatory fish including smallies were introduced as chub control, but didn't work very well.
-perch we're introduced and hammered the chubs.
-chubs no longer plentiful, perch population suffered and cycles according to available good
-walleye introduced to eat up perch
-perch got bigger with diverse age classes,walleye thrived, bass and trout doing good, everybody's happy
How adding more mouths made this work I don't really know. Perhaps adding a top predator that would effectively eat small smb and perch allowed other forage bases to recuperate.
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Yes Pat we have been paying attention. All is good right now.
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"As far as introducing sterile walleye, I was thinking about the history of Starvation and how it may apply to Jordanelle. Correct me if I'm wrong on my starvation history. Its been I while since I had a starvation lesson.
-chubs were overrunning the lake and competing with trout.
-predatory fish including smallies were introduced as chub control, but didn't work very well.
-perch we're introduced and hammered the chubs.
-chubs no longer plentiful, perch population suffered and cycles according to available good
-walleye introduced to eat up perch
-perch got bigger with diverse age classes,walleye thrived, bass and trout doing good, everybody's happy"
[#0000FF]Incorrect...beginning with "[/#0000FF][#0000FF][#000000][size 3]-predatory fish including smallies were introduced as chub control, but didn't work very well."[/size][/#000000]
Walleyes and smallies were put in to control chubs in 1978. And they worked extremely well. Within a few years there were no more small chubs being netted by DWR and the exploding population of walleyes and smallmouth started to stunt.... There were actually contracts put out for private netting operations to net out the stunted walleyes...in the early 2000s.
The illegal introduction of perch turned out to be salvation for Starvation. There were lots of weed beds, aquatic vegetation and abundant invertebrates for the perch. They exploded and the walleyes and smallmouth began to feed on the new abundant food source. Suddenly the stunted fish began growing again...with walleyes over 10 pounds and smallmouths over 5 pounds showing up. The state record walleye was caught in 2002. And the perch kept doing well too...with many between 13 and 14 inches being caught.
There were a few surviving chubosaurs from the early days...some up to 16 inches...and fat, gross and with lesions. Some still spawned...marginally. Others were beyond their prime and just died out. But there were no small chubs in the reservoir and the last known big chub was seen about 2010. During which time fishing for all species...including the recently expanded plantings of rainbows...continued to produce fantastic fishing.
The perch fishing held up through the ice fishing season of 2013-2014. Ice anglers did well right up to ice off. Then, some of the first anglers to hit the newly opened water reported seeing large numbers of dead perch washed up along several shorelines. They were all sizes...not just dead spawners.
Over the next year the perch population was low. Nobody was catching any perch. And the walleye and smallmouth fishing was noticeably slower too. But the trout...feeding on the abundant zooplankton...still flourished and provided some fishing.
Perch fishing started to come back this past winter and there is hope for better days...for all species.
Where did you get your info? I got mine from DWR and from multiple fishing trips each year...and from interacting with many other knowledgeable anglers who regularly fish Starvation. I keep logs and take lots of pictures. I keep dated files...so I know exactly when each of the steps occurred. It is possible to rationalize and justify almost any outcome if you twist the facts to fit what you want them to be. I don't have any particular ax to grind but I do try to be correct whenever possible.
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Not sure my memory is quite the same as yours.
Never was a Trout Classic at Starvation,, Walleye Classic lasted for many, many years, Big Walleye slowly became smaller and smaller.
Rare Utah Walleye lake that suffered from chub depredation due to the Walleye and Smallmouth, some Browns competed well.
Walleyes on the down turn due to no food.
Perch introduced (Illegally) and turned the Walleye lake around, Smallies prospered as well.
Trout introduced in larges numbers lately that also did very well.
That's the way I remember it!
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You know, one way to help to this problem is to tell me where, when and what to catch those smallmouth on and I'll go up there twice a week and catch a limit and eat them all week.
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I got my info from other starvation anglers, and hazed by my own memory due to lack really caring about history, so thank you for clearing that up.
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[quote PBH]
It is very obvious that the problem with Jordanelle is perch. Just like every other lake they show up in, they cause problems. So, figure out a way to reduce their spawning capabilities and knock their population back. You do that, and your smb will thrive.
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Sorry I missed the fun this afternoon but work was nuts. You guys covered a lot of ground so I might repeat some stuff already discussed.
1. So, Jordanelle would have been better without perch? Lets look at that first. As someone who fished Jordanelle during much of the +/- 10 year peak, I can tell you that it was quite a peak. You almost expected to break your personal best on every trip and anglers were coming from all over the country to fish it for smallies. During that time, the food that fueled this was perch. As I covered previously, the large Jordanelle smallies depend almost exclusively on perch. It was the same then as it is now. The perch biomass then was enormous as well. Could chubs have provided the same amount of biomass as quickly? I doubt it. If the chubs were that numerous during the first few years, we would have seen a negative effect in the rainbow trout there. Since I enjoy fishing for trout too, especially through the ice, I can attest the trout were (and are) healthy and fat throughout. So it is my opinion that the peak of Jordanelle would not have been as amazing if perch were not there.
The only place in Utah I hear that consistently produces smallies as large as what we enjoyed during the lake X heyday is Pineview. What is the forage at Pineview? Those nasty perch and crappie.
Perch as forage are similar to a love interest that is smoking hot but a little crazy. She/he can take you to great heights but there are issues that aren't always perfect afterwards.
2. So now lets examine the flip side. Your assertion is that chubs are a superior forage option. As I already stated, I don't believe the chubs would have been able to permit the smallies to reach the dizzying heights the perch did during the heyday. But would they have been better longer term? How suitable are chubs as a long term warmwater forage fish generally? Lets see if we can get some clues from other examples.
Chubs have been the target forage for warmwater species in Utah several times. Lets see what happened.
a) The first example I know of is Utah lake. It used to be full of chubs. Then warmwater species were introduced. It didn't take long before they were functionally eliminated. Now the fish species there have their own food webs but chub forage is a distant memory. Even June suckers fared better.
b) Next example is Starvation. We already talked about that, but same deal. They provided forage for a while but eventually became extremely rare, with negative consequences to the fishery until the unmentionable species was introduced.
c) Flaming Gorge. This one is notable because it was smallies only but same thing. Lakers don't extirpate chubs. They coexisted with Lakers in Fish lake for decades. There were lots of chubs at FG until the smallies were stocked and then poof, gone.
d) We have already talked about what perch do to chub populations at Jordanelle, Fish Lake, Deer Creek, Rockport, Echo, and others. If perch are put in a lake, you won't have chubs there 20 years later.
It seems to me that chubs aren't a good choice as a warmwater forage either because they simply cannot compete. They get eaten up.
Would it have been different in Jordanelle? The absence of crayfish would make me highly skeptical. Currently, smallies there key on minnows as food because it is most profitable to do so and there aren't very many crayfish or other morsels in the rocks. (fishing hint for lake X, do not pound the rocks for smallies like you would elsewhere. Fish the shallow grasses, weeds, and stickups) This would have been the same whether the forage was perch or chubs. Thus, the same result would have eventually occurred with the chubs as we see now. The young of year eaten up and old relict chubs showing up, reminding us of the past.
What I think would have happened if perch never showed up is that the peak of smallies would not have been as amazing as it was, the peak would have lasted longer (so a positive there) but by now we would still be where we are at right now with stunted smallies and growth issues, Cliff blaming the DWR and bass harvest, and the rest of us having the exact discussion we are having now.
IMO, neither perch or chubs (or other forage for that matter) are the perfect solution for every situation, they do have their good and bad aspects, and they both make our fisheries managers earn their money.
Finally, W&B: No crawdads in OC? No way. My FIL and I dined on them one year. Large ones too. Lots of dads in the OC.
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I'd challenge anyone (Pat? Cliff? anyone?) to name 1 documented fishery where perch and small mouth bass thrive together (no walleye, no pike, no other predators -- like we have with Jordanelle). You won't find one.
Anywhere.
Not Utah. Not Ontario. Not Wisconsin. Nowhere.
Perch and small mouth bass are a bad mix. That's what we are seeing in Jordanelle.
I mentioned sterile walleye, or saugeye -- but that slip in my better judgement. I should have said wipers!
Wipers would probably help that lake. I'd support a wiper introduction at Jordanelle.
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[quote doggonefishin]
The only place in Utah I hear that consistently produces smallies as large as what we enjoyed during the lake X heyday is Pineview. What is the forage at Pineview? Those nasty perch and crappie.
Finally, W&B: No crawdads in OC? No way. My FIL and I dined on them one year. Large ones too. Lots of dads in the OC.[/quote]
I will only reply to these two comments...
1) I would totally disagree with the idea that Pineview is the only smallmouth fishery that has consistently produced smallies as large as what we enjoyed at Jordanelle. I would contend that Newcastle has been doing it for a longer period of time than what Jordanelle ever did...and, Minersville has done it prior to the last draining of the reservoir and since. I would also say that places like Upper Enterprise Reservoir, Piute, and Otter Creek have all pumped out big smallies consistently over the past couple decades.
2) Crawdads were not even in the Sevier River drainage until about 5-10 years ago. They did NOT even exist in Otter Creek and Piute. Yet, smallmouth bass were growing to trophy sizes without them utilizing chubs as their main forage. I never said that they did not exist; I said that they aren't there in large numbers...and, they are not. You may find some at certain times of the year, but nowhere near what you would find at Minersville or Newcastle or even Flaming Gorge. Also, FWIW, crayfish also exist in Jordanelle just not in large numbers.
Finally, I will repeat the FACT that smallmouth have NEVER eliminated chubs when they are the top predator. Again, at Flaming Gorge, the only way chubs were eliminated was with the help of lake trout. Also, Fish Lake has a very extensive amount of millfoil that allows for great fry habitat and allowed for young of year chubs to escape lake trout predation. I have never seen that kind of millfoil at Flaming Gorge. At these other "warm" water fisheries, other top level predators exist--like walleye and even white bass in Utah Lake. But, in a place like Otter Creek before crawdads even existed in the system, the reservoir was routinely poisoned because of chubs and despite of smallmouth bass. The same concept holds true at Newcastle, Upper Enterprise, Minersville, and Piute.
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[quote wormandbobber]
1) I would totally disagree with the idea that Pineview is the only smallmouth fishery that has consistently produced smallies as large as what we enjoyed at Jordanelle. I would contend that Newcastle has been doing it for a longer period of time than what Jordanelle ever did...and, Minersville has done it prior to the last draining of the reservoir and since. I would also say that places like Upper Enterprise Reservoir, Piute, and Otter Creek have all pumped out big smallies consistently over the past couple decades.
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I have never fished at Newcastle, so you may be right about that. A hyperabundant source of food for a period would make it possible. As for the rest, Upper Enterprise, pffft. Used to fish that a bit and no comparison. Minersville, not even close when I lived in sin city and fished it then. while I've enjoyed your pics of the smallies taken by gillnetting there more recently, again not what we used to get out of the X. OC, not that Ive seen. Piute, no experience there, but with the dismal water situation and drawdowns there, I highly doubt it. Minersville and OC are fine smallie fisheries, but it is easy to forget how amazing lake X was during its heyday and that is what we are talking about here.
[quote wormandbobber]
2) Crawdads were not even in the Sevier River drainage until about 5-10 years ago. They did NOT even exist in Otter Creek and Piute. Yet, smallmouth bass were growing to trophy sizes without them utilizing chubs as their main forage.
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The trip I referenced was on Labor day of 2000. We caught dads where we were shore fishing at the edge of that round hill just to the left of the state park campground. We even ate some. This is not a story from a friend of a friend of a friend, but something my family and I experienced with our own eyes. Whereas crayfish are fairly distinctive morphologically, and I do feel qualified with my animal biology degree to make that call, I can only conclude that they were crayfish and you are mistaken. Sorry.
[quote wormandbobber]
Finally, I will repeat the FACT that smallmouth have NEVER eliminated chubs when they are the top predator. Again, at Flaming Gorge, the only way chubs were eliminated was with the help of lake trout. Also, Fish Lake has a very extensive amount of millfoil that allows for great fry habitat and allowed for young of year chubs to escape lake trout predation.
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So you are saying that FG is devoid of inshore refugia for young chubs to escape lake trout? Nonsense. When there were lots of chubs there, they would swarm in the shallows and we would catch them with worms from shore casting out a short distance. Well away from where large lake trout would be and fairly safe from predators. In addition, during the time in question, there was still a fair amount of flooded brush they could hang in. However, when the smallies were planted, those sites became far more hazardous. Sure, trout ate some, but there are brown trout and others eating chubs in all of our examples. And the FG chubs are now gone.
Sorry, but the evidence continues to tell me that chubs are very inadequate as a long term forage option for consistently sustaining warmwater species, including smallies.
One last thing that I didn't bring up last night. Back 10-11 years ago when you and your brother were having a very similar discussion with me about the same thing, one of you brought up that perch were bad because they were predaceous and would eventually eat all the bass fry to ill effect. There is no argument that they are indeed predaceous and do eat everything that doesn't eat them. Now, lets fast forward to today. 11 years ago, there was an astronomical number of perch in the X and smallie numbers were what we thought was decent but compared to now, low. However, about 60-65% of all fish I caught in that period was over the 12 inch slot and we were getting frequent trophies. A few years later, the perch crashed. What happened right after? The smallie population skyrocketed. While Cliff and others (me too) were dislocating our shoulders patting ourselves on our back for how amazing we were as anglers with our enormous fish counts, it should have been obvious that the smallie population was growing too fast for the existing forage. We know what happened next, stuntsville. So it seems likely that a large perch population inhibits the smallie population. But is that good or bad? In hindsight it is good. No stunting and a population that can have sustained growth.
Since chubs are infinitely less predaceous, compared to perch, I can't help but wonder if the perch were absent, if the smallie population would have exploded sooner at Jordanelle, and we would have been in a stunting situation sooner than we did. We certainly know that angler harvest wouldn't have kept the small smallies in check as too many folks were believing Cliffs rants about the evils of keeping bass.
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Wipers are an open water fish. That wouldn't boat well with kokes and koke fisherman. What about a few tiger muskies?
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[quote doggonefishin]
I have never fished at Newcastle, so you may be right about that. [/quote]
You are missing out.
[quote doggonefishin] Minersville, not even close when I lived in sin city and fished it then. while I've enjoyed your pics of the smallies taken by gillnetting there more recently, again not what we used to get out of the X.
[quote doggonefishin]
Biggest smallies I've ever caught were at Minersville. That was about 10 years ago. The nice thing with Minersville, and other southern waters, is that we don't have the exposure that those up north have. So we get to experience some very good fishing without everyone figuring it out!
[quote doggonefishin]Piute, no experience there, but with the dismal water situation and drawdowns there, I highly doubt it. [/quote]
Which is exactly what those locals enjoying phenomenal smallie fishing want you to think! It's also why they cry foul so much when DWR starts discussing rotenone treatments during those low water years. Those smallies in Piute are incredible - but very few people know about it.
[quote doggonefishin]Minersville and OC are fine smallie fisheries, but it is easy to forget how amazing lake X was during its heyday and that is what we are talking about here.
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I'll agree. So, how do you get back to that?
Stock perch? I don't think so.
find me 1 single instance of a lake with smallmouth and perch as the primary predators where they thrive together.
You can't. There aren't any. Anywhere.
get rid of 1 or the other.
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