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stan -- you have to ask why those regulations are in place, and what the population looks like. If pike are left to recruit without any natural system to keep their population in check, you WILL end up with a lake full of hammer handles. This happens all across the country, as well as in Canada and Alaska. So, while in many instances a "save the big fish" regulation may very well be necessary, in many cases it is not, and it is simply a "feel good" regulation.
One example I can give right here in Utah is McGath on the Boulders. Home of world famous big brook trout. Trophy brook trout. Anglers eventually wanted to "protect" these big brook trout by restricting angling during winter months when those trophy fish were more vulnerable. So, the DWR listened to anglers and closed this lake to winter-time fishing. Guess what? Under these regulations to "protect the big fish", the fishery has suffered. Why? Because those big fish are no longer being harvested and thus the population size has increased which results in smaller average size fish. So, by anglers insisting on protecting those big fish we have lost those same big fish!
I have no problem at all with the current regulations at Yuba. I think the managers of Yuba are doing this correctly by allowing high numbers of pike to be harvested, and I think they are working very hard to promote (KSL Outdoors show!) this fishery. They are promoting because they want pike harvested. One fish over 36" is just fine -- it still allows anglers to keep a big fish and also keeps anglers happy because we're protecting the "big ones". At this point, the real issue is simply harvest: harvest the pike you catch under the current regulation. It is going to keep Yuba a quality pike fishery far longer than Yuba would be with more restrictive harvest regulations.
for those few rabble-rousers asking for more restrictive regulations at Yuba, please ask yourself a question:
Why are so many people catching so many pike right now?
The answer:
1. Because there are a ton of them
2. They are hungry!!
(those are problems!!!)
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I agree with you. those larger pike take a long time to grow to trophy sizes, it takes multiple years.... google "average growth rates of pike", pretty interesting. I'd like to see regulations that "truly" protect the larger trophy class fish, but still allow fisherman the opportunity to keep numbers in check and have a few pike for dinner.
I too believe that with the increased pressure at Yuba, its just a matter of time til the majority of the larger fish are gone. enjoy it now, because I don't see the current regs(or water levels) working long term for a sustainable "trophy" pike fishery.
If any group of fisherman can wipe out a population of fish, its us Utahns!! Cause If I don't keep this fish, somebody else will...[  ]
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tangled -- pointer:
you are both right. Big fish obviously eat more carp. But you guys are only looking short-term. Think long term for a few minutes.
You have a big fish. He's eating lots of carp. At the same time, lots, and lots, and lots of other smaller pike are starving. Not only are they starving, but they are also reproducing. And reproducing. And reproducing.
So, the catch here is this: what happens when that big fish -- the one we protected that was eating lots of carp -- what happens when he dies of old age? He gets replaced. By what? a bunch of smaller fish!! And, guess what? Because there are so many smaller fish they "stunt" -- they don't get to be trophy's any longer.
Carp as a forage species are poor. Smaller pike do not utilize them very well because small carp are only available for a short period of time. Eventually those big fish die, and you end up with a lake full of small fish.
but, you guys just go ahead and keep preaching "save the big ones". You're doing more harm than good, whether you know it or not.
Always remember (aside from perch being bait) that you need to concentrate on that zone of maximum growth rate -- I think tangled mentioned slow growth and length of time to grow a big fish. They only grow slow when there are too many of them!! If your fish population is in that special zone of maximum growth rate THEY GROW FAST!! This is what you want! Fast growth = big fish! High populations = slow growth = small fish. Reduce your population size and you will have big fish!
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[quote pointerfish25]Not sure if you were replying to me or not, but I haven't personally attacked, demeaned, or insulted anyone. Simply posted an evidentially un-popular opinion. Also, I don't believe I've used any offensive language.[/quote]
Worry not, it wasn't your posts causing the problems.
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I aree with you we do need to harvest some pike. What i'm saying, is lets do it selectively.
even under the most ideal conditions, 40" pike don't grow in a year. it takes MANY years. the pike in Yuba right now are unreal, we need to protect "some" of them...
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[quote Tangled_not]I aree with you we do need to harvest some pike. What i'm saying, is lets do it selectively.
even under the most ideal conditions, 40" pike don't grow in a year. it takes MANY years. the pike in Yuba right now are unreal, we need to protect "some" of them...[/quote]
I disagree. For one: the pike somehow managed to get to their current size under pretty liberal regulations!
The number of years is all relative. What we know is that for the last 5 years pike populations have experienced FAST growth rates. If population numbers continue to go up those growth rates will drop significantly. When they do, then those large pike will disappear -- they will never grow to those large sizes again. So, keep the population numbers down [if possible], otherwise it won't matter one bit if you protect big fish or not -- there won't be any to protect.
Keep the growth rates high, and you will have a constant flow of "big fish" replacing harvested big fish as fast as they are harvested -- pike are being recruited every year, so there is always one just waiting in line to replace that harvested "big one".
Allow populations to explode and growth rates slow, and you'll replace the lost big fish (any mortality) with small fish that grow ssssllllllloooooowwwwwwww.....
right now, harvesting a big pike isn't going to hurt a thing at Yuba.
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[quote pointerfish25]Not sure if you were replying to me or not, but I haven't personally attacked, demeaned, or insulted anyone. Simply posted an evidentially un-popular opinion. Also, I don't believe I've used any offensive language.[/quote]
I was referring to Perchsuck about the language (now has been removed). But I do believe this statement you made would qualify as demeaning, insulting and as a personal attack on the "guy from KSL"
[#bf0000]I have no problem with legally keeping fish, but doing it to quote, "save the perch" is ridiculous. Hell, even the state guy who appeared on KSL Outdoors was advocating the catch and keeping of big pike to quote, "bring back the perch and walleye fishery." That may be [#0000ff]the dumbest statement I've ever heard[/#0000ff].[/#bf0000]
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The 20 fish daily pike limit at Yuba is simply eradication disguised as a plan. Bag limits are only effective when anglers regularly harvest their bag limits, 20 fish has never been a reasonably expectation.
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I am all for the occasional harvest of big pike for exactly reasons PBH mentions. That's why you can keep one over 36". However what seems to be occurring is fisherman are going to Yuba multiple times and keeping all the big pike every trip. Do that and you will end up with hammer handles. There will be no apex predator (bigger pike) to keep the smaller pike in check and soon they will out populate the forage base. Which results in stunting. Keeping one or even two pike over 36" over the course of the winter is fine. Keeping 6 or 8 or 10 not so much. Minnesota has switched to one over 36" for the entire year in some trophy pike lakes for example. Not suggesting Yuba go to that extreme but let's go a little easier on the big pike.
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Wow good job pointerfish you stirred up a hornets nest!
I like that you are concerned about the future of the quality of the pike. And you have the right to an opinion. Personally I wish there were abundant trophy fish of all species in Yuba(with exception of the Carp). But realistically there may be a natural ebb and flow to this.
Human intervention brought these spicies to Yuba( excluding carp). Humans should maintain an Eco balance. I tend to side with those who have studied fresh water biology. Although they are human and have to learn from there successes and mistakes. At the expense of tax payers(I think the DWR employees pay taxes too). Regardless it's good to be concerned and voice an opinion in hopes that trophy fish are available. As this is econicomicaly valuable. Sport fishing is a great asset to have in Utah's economy. I like reading about Utah hot spots in nationally published magazines and television shows for the economic reasons.
Stay passionate pointerfish and don't be afraid to voice your opinion also reasearch will help.
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[quote stan55] There will be no apex predator (bigger pike) to keep the smaller pike in check and soon they will out populate the forage base. Which results in stunting..[/quote]
No. That is incorrect. Stunting results when fish reach sexual maturity at a smaller than average size. Or, in other terms -- when growth rates become so slow that the fish can't grow to a normal size before they start spawning.
This has NOTHING to do with available forage. It has EVERYTHING to do with population densities. Once the bucket is full, it is full. Pike are going to keep reproducing and adding to that bucket, which means in order for them to fit their average size will have to continue to go down, and down, and down.
Just out of curiosity -- do you guys also think that we should protect those "big pike" (over 36") in Redmond? Why, or why not?
hook 'em and cook 'em!
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ok heppy you go ahead and go home to momma. You can continue tomorrow I will take it from here tonight and give my 2 cents for what it's worth LOL. Because I am just a Pike fisherman. This is my beliefs. That there is so many Pike in Yuba that the fisherman coming every week could not take out enough. and I state COULD NOT TAKE OUT ENOUGH. Me and my friends are going to go down there 2-3 times a week and pound them pike till the ice is gone. And when they get going good in May and June we will go pound them again. It is my belief, That we will have 2-3 years of excellent Pike fishing through the ice. By letting anybody who wants to take Pike home, do so. If there is ever a chance of a 50 plus incher there has to be a lot of 30 inch Pike taken out of there. On a side note, I have heard of a handful of stories of Pike being on that bit off. That had bigger heads than the size of their ice holes. So that means there is a lot of nice Pike still in there. Them big Pike have a lot of roaming room. about 18 miles. They can roam all the way to Gunnison the dover. I belive there are a lot of big Pike in the river that don't even get ice fished. The big reason why we did the show was to help educate people. About how critical it is to take fish out. The pike has no predator but ME and my BUDDIES. [cool]
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(not picking on ya PBH - you were just the last post)
Let's keep it civil folks. Harvest is always a touchy subject, but a decent discussion or debate doesn't have to require name-calling, or personal attacks.
Hate to lock the thread - where there is some decent discussion going on.
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This whole conversation is moot after all the FL perch get dumped in.
The reason a trophy pike is easy to catch now is because it is starving.
Once the lake is full of food a big pike won't be fooled so easily by an imitation bait or a hunk of chub meat hanging under the ice cap.
Look at how this played out at places like Willard or even Powell.
At Willard there are some massive wipers swimming around but due to a bunch of food they don't get caught all that often.
Powell is even worse with boom and bust cycles of baitfish.
I believe Yuba is on the verge of a bust.
I also believe UL has a bunch more pike in it than anybody knows. It is full of food so the pike are not caught very often. I watched a camera in one of the harbors a few weeks ago. I saw 3 different pike swim by in less than 5 minutes.
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There are a lot of pike in yuba, but you guys are acting like it's off the hook fishing down there? Maybe because there a bigger fish and people get excited about a possibility of that. But I know more guys reporting getting skunked down there or they only catch 1 or 2, some of that is because guys don't know what they're doing, some cause it can be a slow day but the other is because the bucket ain't close to being full yet down there, lots of food and space for them and all of these fish are incredibly healthy!
But we have to manage for the future, I understand that and if there is a fear that the bucket will eventually fill up than lets remove some of them. I hate seeing big trophy fished removed but people have that right and opinions. Also the 20 fish limit ain't a reasonable expectation for 99 percent of anglers, so I don't care about that number. I do wish it was lower though, and liberal limits will lead to waste. I think 6 was a good number, a boat full of 4 fisherman taking 24 pike home is more reasonable, than potentially people having an above average day and taking home 50 fish or more. it will lead to waste.
PBH, I like your in depth info and have appreciated your responses and answers to my questions, so thank you. I wanted to hear your take on removing trophy lakers?
Also I wish that ksl show would've emphasized much more, the using of steel leader, some pretty good waste telling guys to chance it with mono and have a big lure being stuck in a pikes throat. These fish aren't leader shy!!!!! I catch tons on steel leader ice fishing and soft water. Buy some 100 pound fluoro leaders if you're mental about leader shy stuff! Don't potentially waste a big fish that could be eaten or heaven forbid, caught and released for others to enjoy [ ] Plus you'll save money in lures!
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the liberal regulations over the past 10 years haven't made a bit of difference, because there hasn't been enough fishing pressure to even matter. Well, the cat's out of the bag. the fishing pressure is through the roof, and the upper end 36" plus fish are being harvested without a "real" limit or regulation.
now that people know how good the pike fishing is, the pressure isn't going to decrease after ice off, it will continue...
I honestly hope the current regs are exactly what the Pike fishery needs, but I have some serious doubts about its long term sustainability for larger class fish.
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I'd wager that as soon as the harvest has a negative impact on the number of pike that the DWR will readdress the issue. It's not that they want to get rid of the Northern Pike. It's that they want to try to keep things balanced a little bit. The fishery would be better with more perch. Whether people are catching perch or not isn't really the whole point. Having another forage fish will be better for the pike. Having perch, walleye, and pike will make a better fishery for Yuba.
[red]⫸[/red][orange]<{[/orange][yellow]{{[/yellow][green]{[/green][size 4][green]⦇[/green][/size][blue]°>[/blue]
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The only question I have is how old are the 36 inch pike? I could have seen the slot be just a bit lower but I am fine with the regs. Pike can reproduce and grow quickly so don't feel bad. Look at how many eggs are in a 22 inch female......thousands.
Looking forward to heading to the beehive state to fish Yuba March 1, I just hope there is safe ice.
There are lots of ways to catch them, and steel leaders are not always best. Thick clear stuff doesn't spook the leader shy toothy critters, and many of them are leader shy. I actually prefer tip ups over hand rods or jawjackers.
![[Image: D6640C0B-8977-464C-A120-9920E091F33C_zpstl1yzojf.jpg]](http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab136/DrKevinLewis/Fishy%20Photos/D6640C0B-8977-464C-A120-9920E091F33C_zpstl1yzojf.jpg)
Just saying.
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[quote Duckbutter]The only question I have is how old are the 36 inch pike? I could have seen the slot be just a bit lower but I am fine with the regs. Pike can reproduce and grow quickly so don't feel bad. Look at how many eggs are in a 22 inch female......thousands.
Looking forward to heading to the beehive state to fish Yuba March 1, I just hope there is safe ice.
There are lots of ways to catch them, and steel leaders are not always best. Thick clear stuff doesn't spook the leader shy toothy critters, and many of them are leader shy. I actually prefer tip ups over hand rods or jawjackers.
[.IMG]http://i857.photobucket.com/albums/ab136/DrKevinLewis/Fishy%20Photos/D6640C0B-8977-464C-A120-9920E091F33C_zpstl1yzojf.jpg[/IMG]
Just saying.[/quote]
Guess we'll disagree about the leader , especially in that stained yuba water. maybe finniky pressured muskies can be leader shy, but even then I still use steel leader. I ain't going to tell ya how many I caught last year but I would've lost TONS if I didn't have steel leader. and even heavy mono or fluoro can be bitten off. I think telling people to "chance" it is bogus. and we shouldn't be lettin these fish swim away with big hardware stuck down its throat. just sayin.
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Steel leaders are the safe bet. Since I switched to 25-40lb fluoro I may have been lucky with 13 straight with no break offs, but I have had to replace the leader a couple times after notches and wear from a few, but I have seen an increase in bites. I will see how many I catch before I get my first break off.
More important than an appropriate leader, for those new to pike, go get some Jaw openers or mouth props! Save your fingers lots of slivers! In October fishing crank baits from my float tube I caught 7 one day, and even with long needle nose my hands got all torn up trying to just open their mouths to get access. Mouth openers are essential to a good time.
I am looking forward to fishing Yuba for the first time, and will haul as many lawn darts out of there as I can. Last night we had some parmiggiano breaded pike fillets, baked, not fried. Love me some pike on the palette!
How many perch will be coming over from fish lake?
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